Why you should not withhold spanking!

In the first article in this series, I said that many women want to be under the loving, protective dominant control of their man. In the second, I argued that being taken in hand is not just a game, but that it is erotic. You might want to read the first two articles before you read this one. (Click the links to go to those articles.)


“If a woman finds the idea of ‘getting a hiding’ erotic, how can it also ’work’ to modify her behaviour? Spanking would be a reward, not a punishment!”

Punishment implies subjecting a person to pain, confinement, or some other disagreeable consequence such as confiscation of something that person values, or being made to do something unpleasant, like writing lines or a letter to the tax people. Doing something the person loves would appear to be counterproductive: how could something the person loves be unpleasant for them?

Is it that punishment spanking is to non-punitive spanking what rape is to consensual sex? You can love sex but find rape unbearable.

No, that comparison does not hold up under scrutiny. In the case of real, non-fantasy/fun rape, the woman absolutely does not want it, and if she could avoid it, and never experience it, she would. By contrast, plenty of women do long for their husbands to take them in hand. Such women may feel ‘unwillingness’ and ‘fear’ in association with a serious spanking, but nothing like the very real fear and non-consent a woman who has no interest in being taken in hand would feel. In that case, the spanking is abuse. In the first case, the woman finds the possibility that she could be taken in hand erotic, and on some level she really wants it, ‘unwillingness’ notwithstanding.

But if it is erotic, how can it possibly work to modify the woman's future behaviour? If you want to punish people, you impose a negative consequence on them, you don't give them something they have been longing for for the last thirty years. So men new to these ideas often decide that the punishment they will give their women is not to spank them. They withhold spanking. If taking a woman in hand were simply about using punishment as a deterrent, then this would make sense. But it is not that simple.

The underlying aim of all this is to create and maintain a good relationship – an evolving, ever-improving, intimately-connected relationship in which problems get solved and the partners retain sexual desire for each other. It is not about knocking a faulty woman into shape. If it were, why should any man want such a tiresome burden? Why not just get a dog? And how many men would feel perfect enough to stand in judgement over their woman? Let's face it, chaps, more often than not, she is a lot more sensible, reasonable, capable, and responsible than he is, so presumably she would have her hands full knocking the faulty man into shape too!

Whilst some women do valiantly take on that gargantuan task, in many cases, that is not what happens, and no matter how many glaring faults in need of correction the man has, he is nevertheless the one in control. That is what both of them want. And it can make the difference between an unfulfilling, lifeless relationship, and a vibrant, sexually and emotionally fulfilling one that facilitates the growth of both persons.

Friendships can be close and intimate and fruitful, as can parent-child relationships. What distinguishes a friendship from an ‘intimate relationship’ is the sexual element. Maintaining high contrast between the man and the woman is sexy. The more similar the man and the woman become, the more indistinguishable they are, the less interesting they become to each other, and the less they desire each other. When a man is dominant, and not just as a bedroom game – when the woman feels his authority all the time, when she knows that he will not hesitate to take her in hand if he thinks it necessary – the woman's desire for the man is phenomenally intense. She is aware of his otherness, his masculinity, his power. This prevents her from feeling like his mother, his boss or his teacher, and thereby losing desire for him. The man in turn feels more desire for the woman. Instead of turning the man off by reminding him of his controlling mother, boss or teacher, the woman remains a woman to him. Their connection is better in every way.

But that's not all. One of the problems of conventional relationships is that small errors in signalling and interpretation lead to huge fights and, worse, to withdrawal and stonewalling. The most trivial problem can turn into an all-out war. Even tiny accidents and misunderstandings can set off a chain of events leading to an out-of-control downward spiral of ill-will and misery. You think he is being unfriendly (when in fact he is just preoccupied) so you are slightly less friendly yourself. He subconsciously notices your slight negativity, and responds more guardedly than he would otherwise have done. You think he is being unpleasant and can't understand why, and you feel annoyed and respond accordingly. He thinks your evident annoyance is out of order and becomes annoyed himself. And pretty soon you have a fight on your hands. …. And all because of a tiny mistake in your interpretation of his state of mind at the beginning of the interaction. Unfortunately, many conventional couples simply have no means of arresting such downward spirals of bad feeling.

One of the most important benefits of the kind of relationship we talk about on Taken In Hand is that it embodies powerful error correction. No, I do not refer to the errors of the allegedly faulty woman, I am talking about the tiny errors in signalling and interpretation – the little misunderstandings that happen between people all the time – that can so often end up in what feels like a descent into hell.

Instead of allowing little problems to metastasise into misery, accusations, fighting, or icy silence, the dominant man can use serious discipline or some other way of expressing his authority to invoke the relationship. Instead of withdrawing and breaking their connection, he can, through taking or re-establishing control, highlight and re-affirm his commitment to their relationship. Taking a woman in hand is a way of invoking the relationship that can be done without losing face, without any damage to his pride or ego, and without any emasculating grovelling to the woman or loss of power on his part. Through this action, he signals to the woman that he is ready to put the troublesome issue behind them rather than dwelling on it, fighting about it, sulking or stonewalling. It minimises if not eliminates the build-up of niggling resentment that can do so much damage to relationships.

He is also re-affirming his love for the woman and his trust in her. In asserting his authority and requiring his woman to submit to a serious spanking, he is trusting that she will submit rather than call the police or tell him where to stick it. This is a powerful symbol of his commitment to the relationship, and in a way, the more serious and real the discipline he is imposing, the more he is reaching out to his woman.

Similarly, when a woman submits even to serious and possibly painful discipline, she thereby affirms her acceptance of her man's authority as the head of their household. This is a powerful statement of her love of him, and (whether she admits it or not!) of her submission to him as her man. In consenting to the discipline he wants her to accept (even if she doth protest!), she is likewise signalling her willingness to put the matter behind them instead of allowing it to pollute their interactions in the future.

Just as the man's actions are a way of reaching out to the woman, so her submission amounts to reaching out to her man. This tells the man loud and clear that their relationship is very precious to her. In putting herself in his hands, she shows that she belongs to him and totally trusts him. She is showing that she considers their connection more important than any particular disagreement or other issue they might have. She is raising a white flag and diffusing any potential hostility before it becomes an ugly confrontation. Submitting to her man's authority, even if that means a serious spanking, is an affirmation of the relationship. It communicates her love.

Much of the communication in a serious spanking is tacit, not explicit, but it is important, valuable communication nonetheless. And how much more fun it is than a horrible war of words – in retrospect if not at the time! A serious spanking is a short, sharp, dramatic way of settling a matter. It clears the air. It gets any bad feeling out of the couple's systems, and it often leads to passionate sex which is, I'm sure you'll agree, a very much underrated cure for most of life's ills (or at least ill-feelings)! Then, when the two individuals are feeling good about each other again, they can then talk constructively if anything remains to be resolved after the spanking.

The way serious disciplinary spanking works is not by acting as a deterrent, but in this more indirect way. Paradoxically, its effect is positively encouraging rather than negatively deterring. It re-affirms each partner's love, commitment to, and trust of the other, and repairs any break in their connection. It represents the man's authority and thereby helps to keeps the sexual tension white hot. It makes the woman feel an incredible sense of peace, contentment, and passionate love, and that makes her want to do anything and everything she can to please her man. And when his woman loves to please him and is peaceful, happy and always wanting him, the man is happy and relaxed too.

So if you are new to this kind of relationship and you are thinking that surely it would be more effective to withhold spanking, because your woman loves to be spanked, that reasoning is understandable, but it is a huge mistake. Spanking is not compulsory, and there are other forms of discipline and other ways of expressing your authority, but to withhold spanking in order to punish her is a psychologically violent act. It raises walls between you; it is taking a step away from your relationship; it is a declaration of hostilities. The primary object is not actually punishment, it is your sexual and emotional connection. Giving her a good spanking can solve a problem quickly and cleanly and works for your connection; withholding spanking works against it.

the boss

Taken In Hand tour start | next

Have you seen the following articles?
The Taming of the Shrew
Women want men who are more dominant
Never do without sex again
Looking into the mirror of life
The anchor of love
The difference between dominant and domineering
Don't tell anyone I'm here!
The joy of the master-queen dynamic
The face, the mask, and the dream
When rape is a gift

2003 Nov 29 - 17:37 | login or register to post comments | latest article | previous article | next article |

Withholding spanking

Thanks, boss! That is a wonderful explanation of the apparent contradiction of DD. My husband and I have been confused on this point. For a consequence to be a deterrent, we have to hate it so much that we never want it to happen again. And we don't feel that way about spankings, even severe ones. We don't mind if it happens again, and again, and again. So using it to eradicate a behavior doesn't make sense. Unless the behavior in question is really just a manifestation of the deteriorating connection between the man and woman. Then she can be “punished” and the connection restored.

Could you address why it has to feel like punishment to us? The man doesn't say, “Okay honey, I'm going to restore our connection - get over my knee.” Rather he says something along the lines of “that behavior is unacceptable, and you need to be punished for it.” I guess you're going to say that we can't feel his dominance unless it feels like a punishment. And both partners need to feel his dominance and her submission.

So perhaps the function of the husband's rules is not so much to improve his wife's behavior as it is to give him more occasions for discipline than would otherwise come up. He truly dislikes the behavior, and this gives him the emotional oomph he needs to discipline her for it. But if she improves after the spanking, it's because she's been re-connected with her love for him and her desire to please him. It's not that she never wants another spanking!

When I asked my husband to spank me, I had no idea things would get this intellectual!!!

by Melanie on 2003 Nov 29 - 19:58 | login or register to post comments

Real punishment

Melanie wrote: "the husband's rules is not so much to improve his wife's behavior as it is to give him more occasions for discipline than would otherwise come up" but trust me, that wouldn't work in my household. In my household the punishment is real or there is no punishment. I'm not some idiot guy who needs excuses to be the head of his household. When I married my wife, she promised to obey, and that's what I expect. That's what she expects too. She wouldn't want some wussy sensitive male who couldn't keep her in line, she married me because she wanted a MAN.

by mrtom on 2003 Nov 30 - 16:04 | login or register to post comments

Withholding spanking

>He subconsciously notices your slight negativity, and responds more >guardedly than he would otherwise have done. You think he is being >unpleasant and can't understand why, and you feel annoyed and >respond accordingly.

I think this article does real justice to the 'question' of whether we use spanking as conventional 'punishment' or use spanking as a way of setting the relationship course back on track. Yes, many will argue that discipline spanking is non-erotic and I understand this view in terms of its sometimes lack of erotic context, yet the only way I can see spanking working for us in getting out of this 'downward spiral' is the erotic content of spanking in particular. How many women would deny an enhanced erotic connection after spanking even if the couple preferred for their own reasons not to make love?

The other point, I think, that is a common (mis)understanding in many cases is the idea that if a couple does choose direct sexual love making after discipline then it will either 1: be a game or 2;confuse the woman into thinking her husband is only spanking her for his own sexual gratification.

If a woman individually feels in some way that her husband is disciplining her only to meet his own sexual needs then I would have to suggest they as a couple do some serious talking. If both the man and woman are serious about using discipline as a way to enhance their own relationship structure, I am convinced there is nothing inherent in this discipline of connection that would disallow making love even immediately afterwards. A couple may choose a period of emotional reflection but this a choice, not a rule or dogma one need follow blindly.

As explained quite well in this article, the discipline spanking is intended to enhance or enrich the relationship intimacy, not directly as a result of blaming the woman entirely and trying to punish her as in a judicial sense of punishment. I can think of no better way to keep a relationship a happy, vibrant place than striving to maintain erotic and intimate connnection through the course of our days.

by Frank Nelson on 2003 Dec 2 - 20:54 | login or register to post comments

Why it must feel like punishment

Let me try to clarify my thoughts: The connection between the couple is going into a "downward spiral," caused by misinterpretation of signals, and neither party is really guilty because neither one deliberately disturbed the connection. A disciplinary spanking is used to restore connection. The question is: if the woman understands this dynamic, how can she feel the spanking as a true punishment? The *problem* being that if she *doesn't* feel truly disciplined, the connection is not restored. I think the boss hit the nail on the head when she said it's a real punishment, but that is not the ultimate point. At some point in the downward spiral of communication, the woman will do something wrong that she can feel truly guilty about and be truly punished for, although on a deeper level she knows that correcting her behavior is not the ultimate point. The ultimate point is to bring the couple closer. Improving her behavior is a beneficial side effect.

by Melanie on 2003 Dec 5 - 15:44 | login or register to post comments

Re: Why it must feel like punishment

Melanie --

The authority and control of the man needs to be real but I'm not sure that need mean it must be "punishment" as such. I personally think "punishment" is the wrong word to use. It is that word that leads to the idea of withholding spanking as a punishment. I think it's better to think in terms of control and authority.

Bill P.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2003 Dec 21 - 12:46 | login or register to post comments

lucky girl

shes very lucky.
maybe its becasue im new but may i ask?
what is it that makes one man confident in his position and another to have no interest?
I ask because my husband treats me more like his sister.

by ash on 2003 Dec 27 - 20:07 | login or register to post comments

Brother-sister relationship?

Ash --

Have you talked to your husband about this?

Does he want you to wear the pants?

Is he having an affair?

Has he always treated you that way? If not what changed and when and why?

Cara

by Cara W on 2004 Jan 6 - 18:53 | login or register to post comments

"why you should not withhold spankings"

Ok! I am new to this web site and I admit that I have not read all the articals relating to D.D. but I do feel that I have something to offer from my own personal experience. I am a woman in my 40's who was married for 20 years. I was seperated from my husband for over 3 years and am now divorced. I am raising our daughters, who are now in their early teens. I am doing this all on my own and their father is not involved in their lives at all.

I married with the understand that my husband was "the head of the house" and I looked to him for love, support, guidance, tenderness, direction, leadership and yes, even loving discipline. On our Honeymoon, I realized I married a angry, violent, selfish, mean, controler who always had to be right, did not show love and compassion, was only concerned with himself and was unable to be giving and loving. He was arrogant, and screamed and threw tantrums and treathened me as a means of control. He said that I was not submissive, yet he gave not guidance or direction. I never really knew where I stood in our relationsip and I learned that "no news was good news" until his anger reached a boiling point and then I heard about all the 'mistakes" I made in one big screaming event.

I admit that I was very "young" and in my understanding of men, and I made the mistake of think that his behavor was manly and that he was showing leadership instead of what the truth was...a very sick man with no idea how to love a woman who was so willing to "submit" if only given the chance. My husband would not love me physically and would not speak to me for days and sometimes weeks. I would ask what was wrong had he would say things like, "if you don't know I am not going to tell you". This silent treatment went on for years.

I worked to help support him through a Masters Degree and part of his PhD. I made a excellent income, I kept a beautiful home, I was a model for a woman's clothing company and was tall and beautiful and slender young wife who when to church, taught sunday school and took excellent care of myself. I had two daughters while working full time and basically lived a lonely and isolated life while my husband pursued his education. I started a business from our home and I continued to take care of our home and hired a gardner and housekeeper with the money I made to keep my home in order and not to upset my husband.

I was told that I had to pay for all my needs and the needs of the children and anything else the we needed other than the morage and the utilities so that he could continue in school after his regular job. I was exausted, overwelmed and very discouraged. I had to take care of all the house repairs, purchase and maintain my own car and do what I was told to prove that I was submssive. I was a married single woman who became a married single mother. I tried never to upset him and I learned early in my marrage that I should not ask for anything from him and I basically took care of myself ...this is the only way I had peace in our home. I became invisiable.

When we had arguments and fights, we really went to war! All the unresolved prolems, continued to appear again and again in our marrage. The fear of being alone in my life caused me to fight for attention and also direction. I felt completely lost. Our arguments continued to be somewhat violent and our daughters were now witness to the sadness and lonelyness or our relationship. He faught to win, not to understand. He saw me as his competition instead of the woman he promised to love and who was the mother of his children. His demands were cruel and he would never give up until he broke me down! I lost all respect, love, trust, dependence, happiness and my commitment to him. I feared him and our daughters began to hate him; they have no respect for him and now don't have a father in their lives because he distroyed any trust of love that a little girl SHOULD have for her father.

I spent almost half my life trying to make my marrage work but, for the benefit of my daughters and for myself I had to put a end the this horrable life. This had been a long, sad and lonely road. I have come to believe with all my heart that if a man, a REAL MAN loves and values his wife and children, if he want to give them security, peace, joy, a feeling of support, direction, and respect for everyone in the family unit and to have a happy and meaningful life for himself, he must be a man willing to direct his wife and family with a Strong and Firm Hand but NOT without true love, compassion, a true desire to understand and to be teachable and to focus on the end result which should be to deminstrate true love and be a protector of his loved ones.

A woman and children should never have to feel they need to be protected from their husband and father. I believe a REAL MAN should be accountable for what is happening in his home and always had a handle on what is happening to his relationship with his wife and children. A REAL MAN knows he is a man and does not have to use fear as a method of control and submission. A REAL MAN will receive the love and devotion of his woman and children as a way to show how much she and the children love and repsect him. True and loving submisison will come as a result of his love and devotion to those that belong to him. I believe that a REAL MAN is worthy of a loving and submissive wife, but only if he can come from a place of true masculinity and not brutality.

If my husband had been such a man, I do believe we would still be together and we would be raising our beautiful daughters as a loving committted couple. I truly believe that my husband has lost everything because he could not be the kind of man who truly loves and protects his wife and children. A REAL MAN will do ANYTHING to protect and care for what "belongs" to him. A REAL MAN is worthy of love, respect and submission. A REAL MAN has the right to ask for it and use any means that is necessary to show love and support and that He is the head of the house because he demonstrates this in who he is in a loving way!

I am somewhat sad and discouraged that I could not have the kind of loving relationship that I desired ever since I as a little girl. To be loved, protected and guided by a REAL MAN that I could give my love to. I believe it is too late for me, but hopefully not too late for my daughters. I hope that they will someday have what I did not. But first, they must heal from their fathers actions and learn to love and trust men and hopefully learn to recognize a REAL MAN when they see one.

Thank you!
Christie

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Feb 1 - 19:52 | login or register to post comments

Christie

You sound like a strong, resilient woman. I don't think it's too late for you at all. I think many young women make the mistake of thinking that a bully or a control freak is a REAL MAN. Keep reading on this site; the REAL MEN here are sensitive and loving.

Melanie

by Melanie on 2004 Feb 2 - 20:36 | login or register to post comments

No sibling love here.

No,
Just another case of not having gender differences pronounced enough.
A little serious display of masculinity has turned that around.
So happy there is Taken In Hand!

ash

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Feb 18 - 23:43 | login or register to post comments

Tears

The underlying aim of all this is to create and maintain a good relationship – an evolving, ever-improving, intimately-connected relationship in which problems get solved and the partners retain sexual desire for each other. It is not about knocking a faulty woman into shape. If it were, why should any man want such a tiresome burden? Why not just get a dog? And how many men would feel perfect enough to stand in judgement over their woman? Let's face it, chaps, more often than not, she is a lot more sensible, reasonable, capable, and responsible than he is, so presumably she would have her hands full knocking the faulty man into shape too!

Whilst some women do valiantly take on that gargantuan task, in many cases, that is not what happens, and no matter how many glaring faults in need of correction the man has, he is nevertheless the one in control. That is what both of them want. And it can make the difference between an unfulfilling, lifeless relationship, and a vibrant, sexually and emotionally fulfilling one that facilitates the growth of both persons.

Friendships can be close and intimate and fruitful, as can parent-child relationships. What distinguishes a friendship from an ‘intimate relationship’ is the sexual element. Maintaining high contrast between the man and the woman is sexy. The more similar the man and the woman become, the more indistinguishable they are, the less interesting they become to each other, and the less they desire each other. When a man is dominant, and not just as a bedroom game – when the woman feels his authority all the time, when she knows that he will not hesitate to take her in hand if he thinks it necessary – the woman's desire for the man is phenomenally intense. She is aware of his otherness, his masculinity, his power. This prevents her from feeling like his mother, his boss or his teacher, and thereby losing desire for him. The man in turn feels more desire for the woman. Instead of turning the man off by reminding him of his controlling mother, boss or teacher, the woman remains a woman to him. Their connection is better in every way.

But that's not all. One of the problems of conventional relationships is that small errors in signalling and interpretation lead to huge fights and, worse, to withdrawal and stonewalling. The most trivial problem can turn into an all-out war. Even tiny accidents and misunderstandings can set off a chain of events leading to an out-of-control downward spiral of ill-will and misery. You think he is being unfriendly (when in fact he is just preoccupied) so you are slightly less friendly yourself. He subconsciously notices your slight negativity, and responds more guardedly than he would otherwise have done. You think he is being unpleasant and can't understand why, and you feel annoyed and respond accordingly. He thinks your evident annoyance is out of order and becomes annoyed himself. And pretty soon you have a fight on your hands. …. And all because of a tiny mistake in your interpretation of his state of mind at the beginning of the interaction. Unfortunately, many conventional couples simply have no means of arresting such downward spirals of bad feeling.

One of the most important benefits of the kind of relationship we talk about on Taken In Hand is that it embodies powerful error correction. No, I do not refer to the errors of the allegedly faulty woman, I am talking about the tiny errors in signalling and interpretation – the little misunderstandings that happen between people all the time – that can so often end up in what feels like a descent into hell.

Instead of allowing little problems to metastasise into misery, accusations, fighting, or icy silence, the dominant man can use serious discipline or some other way of expressing his authority to invoke the relationship. Instead of withdrawing and breaking their connection, he can, through taking or re-establishing control, highlight and re-affirm his commitment to their relationship. Taking a woman in hand is a way of invoking the relationship that can be done without losing face, without any damage to his pride or ego, and without any emasculating grovelling to the woman or loss of power on his part. Through this action, he signals to the woman that he is ready to put the troublesome issue behind them rather than dwelling on it, fighting about it, sulking or stonewalling. It minimises if not eliminates the build-up of niggling resentment that can do so much damage to relationships.

He is also re-affirming his love for the woman and his trust in her. In asserting his authority and requiring his woman to submit to a serious spanking, he is trusting that she will submit rather than call the police or tell him where to stick it. This is a powerful symbol of his commitment to the relationship, and in a way, the more serious and real the discipline he is imposing, the more he is reaching out to his woman.

Similarly, when a woman submits even to serious and possibly painful discipline, she thereby affirms her acceptance of her man's authority as the head of their household. This is a powerful statement of her love of him, and (whether she admits it or not!) of her submission to him as her man. In consenting to the discipline he wants her to accept (even if she doth protest!),

she is likewise signalling her willingness to put the matter behind them instead of allowing it to pollute their interactions in the future.

Just as the man's actions are a way of reaching out to the woman, so her submission amounts to reaching out to her man. This tells the man loud and clear that their relationship is very precious to her. In putting herself in his hands, she shows that she belongs to him and totally trusts him. She is showing that she considers their connection more important than any particular disagreement or other issue they might have. She is raising a white flag and diffusing any potential hostility before it becomes an ugly confrontation. Submitting to her man's authority, even if that means a serious spanking, is an affirmation of the relationship. It communicates her love.

Much of the communication in a serious spanking is tacit, not explicit, but it is important, valuable communication nonetheless. And how much more fun it is than a horrible war of words – in retrospect if not at the time! A serious spanking is a short, sharp, dramatic way of settling a matter. It clears the air. It gets any bad feeling out of the couple's systems, and it often leads to passionate sex which is, I'm sure you'll agree, a very much underrated cure for most of life's ills (or at least ill-feelings)! Then, when the two individuals are feeling good about each other again, they can then talk constructively if anything remains to be resolved after the spanking.

The way serious disciplinary spanking works is not by acting as a deterrent, but in this more indirect way. Paradoxically, its effect is positively encouraging rather than negatively deterring. It re-affirms each partner's love, commitment to, and trust of the other, and repairs any break in their connection. It represents the man's authority and thereby helps to keeps the sexual tension white hot. It makes the woman feel an incredible sense of peace, contentment, and passionate love, and that makes her want to do anything and everything she can to please her man. And when his woman loves to please him and is peaceful, happy and always wanting him, the man is happy and relaxed too.

So if you are new to this kind of relationship and you are thinking that surely it would be more effective to withhold spanking, because your woman loves to be spanked, that reasoning is understandable, but it is a huge mistake. Spanking is not compulsory, and there are other forms of discipline and other ways of expressing your authority, but to withhold spanking in order to punish her is a psychologically violent act. It raises walls between you; it is taking a step away from your relationship; it is a declaration of hostilities. The primary object is not actually punishment, it is your sexual and emotional connection. Giving her a good spanking can solve a problem quickly and cleanly and works for your connection; withholding spanking works against it. the boss

After reading this I burst into tears. It's what I have been looking for my entire life. Thank you for putting into words what I could not.

Now the big question, where do I find a relationship like that?

Hugs

Krys

by Krys on 2004 Mar 1 - 11:53 | login or register to post comments

To Melanie

Thank you so much for you encouragement. I am a very strong woman, but at times I just feel so alone. It it were for my litle girls, I think I would give up!

I will keep reading and maybe someday I will be blessed with a REAL MAN who is sensitive and loving. I have a lot to learn!

Thanks again for your warn thoughts and contern!

Sincerly,
Christie

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Apr 24 - 16:12 | login or register to post comments

Age has nothing to do with it

My heart goes out to you. It is obvious to everyone that reads your story that you are a capable and strong woman. Keep going for your own sake, as well as that of your daughters, you're worth it. While you feel valueless, your ex-husband still has control over you. Let him go completely and move on. You can find love at any age, recently an English woman for the first time ever married at the age of 94. It's better to be alone than with the wrong person. Wishing you everything you desire in the future.

by Mousling on 2004 May 30 - 14:12 | login or register to post comments

Real punishment

mrtom is a bit of pain, isn't he? Does he really have a wife, I wonder, or is he just fantasising. How can his wife put up with such a pain in the neck? Does he keep her drugged, or something, or maybe she's slightly brain-damaged?

by Louise C on 2004 Jun 22 - 15:41 | login or register to post comments

withholding of spanking as punishment

well,there is another side of withholding of spanking `as punishment`.when my submissive wife realy enjoys being spanked by me,she starts disobeying me.it demolishes the whole purpose of punishment[though only sometimes]to punish her i withhold spanking and stop myself from being dominant on her.it really shatters her.she feels alone n insecure than she begs my dominance and makes commitment to obey me.hey u all doms there its a good tip for u if ur submissive wife takes punishment so lightly.i m abdul from pakistan.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2005 Nov 13 - 09:37 | login or register to post comments

Witholding spanking

This sounds just plain cruel to me. Why would you want your wife to to feel alone and insecure? if my husband did this to me I would find it very, very hurtful. he knows perfectly well that I enjoy being spanked, if he stopped spanking me it would just make me frustrated and depressed, it would not have a benficial effect on our relationship at all. If I disobey him he spanks me longer and harder, if he stopped spanking me I'd be miserable and why would he want a miserable wife? A really dominant man would not use cruel tactics like these.

by Louise C on 2005 Nov 13 - 14:03 | login or register to post comments

Listen to your wife

As a woman, I have to inform you that you are so misled. Please be more careful in giving tips. If you want your wife to be more obedient to you, then you must work on keeping your connection with each other going. This is obviously why she is acting out - to get more attention from you!

Sure, she will be more obedient to you for a little while just to be able to feel your love again, but she will soon go back to her old patterns of behavior because her emotional needs are still unfulfilled.

When you take away your love and attention from your partner, you are forsaking your responsibilities as the head of household. Invest a little more of yourself in your wife instead of doing the opposite, and you will most likely reap the rewards you seek.

Be a wise leader instead of a foolish one. Tell her that you are going to actually listen to what she says to you and take her for her word. In this way, she will tell you what she is really feeling deep down inside, and you can adjust your behavior accordingly.

She is screaming for your attention, but you are not listening. This can cause resentment on her part after a time and lead to more disobedience which in turn causes this same cycle of destructive behavior to continue. Do your part as the leader to change this by changing your own behavior first.

Peach

by Peach on 2005 Nov 16 - 13:56 | login or register to post comments

abdul:replying

hi
u both louise n peach are misled by what i said.i withhold spanking n dominance not just because i hate her or i want to make her feel insecure.i can feel your concerns for my wife.naturally for women it just sounds cruel that a man is holding spanking.she is not as disobedient n disrespectfull but whenever she does so i realise that she is administering punishment for herself.i can give her consensual spanking fer fun but when it comes to punishment its a different story.i want to feel n make her feel it real.off course spanking n punishment is always consensual[hidden].but i have my illusions,whenever she tells me after the punishment that she likes it i consider myself fool eventhough she starts obeying me n respecting me more.i want her to feel real dominance n fear of respect of me.it should be real for me.
[now my wife wants to share here something with u i hope i will also know what is going through her mind];
hi i m mrs sameena abdul from pakistan.he has allowed me to say whatever i want.men have always been struggling to understand women`s thoughts n emotions.
i have never thought of disobeying my sir.in fact i love living under my sir`s control n authourity.he is lovingly dominant.but he has an illusion[my God;had i said it without sir`s permisson i would have got the punishment i would never want repeated].sir misunderstands me when i say that its always pleasurable for me of being spanked n punished from him.in fact what i want him to know that pleasure is not in being spanked n punished rather pleasure is in being under his authourity n dominance.whenever sir punishes me i feel pain but this pain helps me feel my sir`s dominance n manly command.as sir himself says that i have never disobeyed him for real,my disobedience is the result of my frustration of not having the feeling of his dominance n authourity all the time.i want it every moment.whenver i commit mistakes i m being punished n slapped.it helps me correct myself.i thank louise to suggest my sir that if he thinks i m disobeying,spank me harder n longer.if he has any doubts than she should punish me the way no wife has been punished by her DH.but withholding of punishment ,spanking n dominance is really hurting for me.though i never feel insecured the way u both women think but still its a mental torture.in subcontinent n asian societies like pakistan public showing of submission for women is not an abnormal thing.its like an social axiom kind of thing here that women should be like that.but whenever i show my submissiveness to him in public he gets annoyed,he thinks that it projects him as a cruel man which in fact is not the case.plz reply our post.[if there is any muslim or indo-pak woman plz do join this article.
mr abdul and mrs sameena abdul from lahore pakistan.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2005 Nov 18 - 21:17 | login or register to post comments

Reply to mrtom

Mr Tom is right. My Husband uses a paddle on my bare behind if I misbehave and after that I am obdediant for a long time. All Husbands should have the right to spank any member of the family they lead if they think they have been bad. God wants women to be under the authority of a man, either their Husband or their Father.

Jenny

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2005 Nov 19 - 14:35 | login or register to post comments

All husbands?

No husband has the right to spank his wife unless she gives him that right. It has to be by mutual consent, otherwise it is abuse. Men do not have the right to go about spanking anyone they feel like spanking, nor should they have that right. And I don't belive that God, if there is one, cares about whether a woman is under the authority of a man or not. I am sure he has more important things to worry about.

by Louise C on 2005 Nov 25 - 08:29 | login or register to post comments

Personally, "God" never told

Personally, "God" never told me that he wanted women to be under the authority of husbands or fathers. Also, I don't believe everything I've been told or read, so I can't use the Bible, Quaran or any other religious book as a basis for this belief. Many different religions say many different things, so one has to be careful in these matters and base judgement on your own personal belief system, education and experience without claiming something as fact without appropriate evidence to back it up. Words on a page can be written by anyone, and unless you have personal experience, it is just heresay. Don't get me wrong; I don't have a problem with male-led relationships as long as they are not abusive. However, I don't necessarily believe that it is correct to state as fact that it is God-ordained regardless of how many people are living this out or what the animal kingdom is doing. That would be just like saying that because people tend to be self-centered, that this is also God-ordained. Just my humble opion. Thanks.

Peach

by Peach on 2005 Nov 28 - 20:48 | login or register to post comments

To Mrs Sameena

I am glad that you are happy with your husband. I think he is mistaken in thinking that withdrawing dominance is a good way of punishing you, for myself this would make me feel very insecure and it would not have a good affect on our relationship. If I am disobedient or wilful (as I quite often am) I need more dominance rather than less, I need my husband to slap me down, either physically or mentally (usually both) and he does. I need to feel that he is in charge, and he is very good at doing this. If he was to withdraw dominance it would make it feel like a kind of game that we could stop and start at will, instead of an ongoing way of life. Not that I think there is anything wrong in doing it as a game, but I need to feel that his dominance is real.

In the UK, where I live, it is not customary for women to be submissive to their husbands, and it is the fact that it is not compulsory that makes it strongly attractive to me. I don't know how I would feel about it if I thought it was something that society expected of me, I think in that situation I might rebel against it. I understand that your husband is not a cruel man, but I do think he is mistaken about this witdrawing of dominance being a good idea.

by Louise C on 2005 Nov 29 - 06:11 | login or register to post comments

To Peach

Peach, I understand where you are coming from, I think. But I think you need to try to understand where Jenny is coming from as well. For those of us who are christians and believe the Bible to be the Word of God, it is fact. For the Bible clearly states that the husband is to be the head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the church, and that the wife is to be in submission and subjection to her own Husband.

I understand that for those who do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God, they have trouble accepting it as fact. And I would never try to convince them that it is. They can't believe that, until they first believe in God and the Bible as being God's Word. But I would ask that they understand, that to us, it is fact.

As for your analogy, if Jenny had stated that it must be God-ordained because of how many people were living it, then your analogy would be exactly correct. But that is not what she stated.

In Love,
kate

by kate{LD} on 2006 Jan 21 - 01:03 | login or register to post comments

The Bible says?

It is Paul who, I believe, says that the wife is to be in subjection to the husband. I don't think Jesus has anything to say about wifely subjection, as far as I can remember. You could argue that Paul is voicing his own opinion, Jesus does not seem to have been interested in the subject, he never says anything about wifely subjection as far as I can remember.

by Louise C on 2006 Jan 21 - 08:58 | login or register to post comments

On-topic, please

I realise that people feel very strongly about this, but could I gently ask everyone to bring this discussion back on-topic for the site and for the article that started the thread. You might like to remind yourselves of The posting rules. Thanks for your cooperation, and thanks for all the wonderful on-topic posts, everyone.

by the boss on 2006 Jan 21 - 09:35 | login or register to post comments

Erotic vs. punishment

I agree in that erotic spankings are not punishment and yes, they do turn me on and usually lead to other things, LOL, so clearly I enjoy them, therefore they would not suffice as discipline; it simply would not be effective for me.

However a discipline spanking is something that I do not enjoy whatsoever but know that when I have been naughty I do deserve them and they are necessary. One of the main differences between our erotic spankings and our discipline spankings is that I NEVER get a warmup for discipline, it always begins bare bottom, and always with a few implements. I cannot end the spanking and he continues until he feels I have been thoroughly punished. I must stay in place or I get extra swats and when he has decided upon a number I have to count aloud and if I mess up or it's not clear, he adds extra swats. This tends to be quite effective for me.

Katie Spades

by Katie_Spades on 2006 Jun 22 - 06:22 | login or register to post comments

This is enlightening

What an absolutely amazing article. I had no idea how deep of a chord this strikes within women to be absolutely and correctly led by their lovers and husbands. I have never been power hungry in my life, nor ever intend to be, but I understand the fact that women feel it down to their very soul to be with and led by men through life.

by JamesM on 2006 Aug 5 - 03:28 | login or register to post comments

Less frequent losses of connection?

My husband and I suffered a loss of connection over the past week whereas he stated that I left him (connection-wise). My opinion is that it is more likely that he left me first (connection-wise), which needs to be discussed, but will probably end up being a conversation much like "which came first the chicken or the egg?".

Regardless, he believes that I should suffer the loss of connection, which he feels I created, in order to make these losses more infrequent. Does anyone believe there is logic in this? It seems to make sense, but it feels like hell on me psychologically in the meantime. Does anyone believe that the "hell" women feel in the present will really be a deterrant from a loss of connection in the future by keeping her on good behavior more of the time?

Peach

by Peach on 2006 Sep 19 - 16:51 | login or register to post comments

You what?

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean your husband wants you to go on feeling disconnected from him? why? How does he think this will benefit your relationship? I don't think being made to go through psychological hell would make me better behaved, it would just make me miserable, and misery does not tend to induce good behaviour in me, quite the reverse in fact. I don't really understand why either your husband or you feel that being disconnected will be good for your marriage. Has he read the above article? Nowhere in the article does it say that making a woman go through psychological hell is a good thing, as far as I can recall. This does not sound like at all a good idea to me.

Louise

by Louise C on 2006 Sep 19 - 17:40 | login or register to post comments

Psychological Hell

No. He does not want me to go through psychological hell as far as I can tell; he wants me to return to him and return to our connection as we had it before. I don't feel that being disconnected is good for our marriage and neither does he because we both want to be connected. He says that as with his god, he sometimes "leaves" god and that his god doesn't leave him. He believes that since I am agnostic, that he should be my "god" and that I should submit to him and look to him for guidance, while never "leaving" him. If I do "leave" him, then it is me who is making myself suffer and that all I have to do is come back to him. (These are his views).

I'm very resentful and frustrated. It would be nice to have some action on his part as far as getting us reconnected is concerned instead of leaving it up to me to reestablish our connection and placing the responsibility on my shoulders.

Peach

by Peach on 2006 Sep 19 - 18:53 | login or register to post comments

Gods and men

Well, I find the idea of considering another human being as god frankly blasphemous. If my husband told me he expected me to regard him as a god, I doubt I'd stop laughing for a week. It sounds to me as if your husband is getting things just a little out of proportion.

And as far as re-establishing a connection goes, there is no way I would ever do that on my own. My husband ALWAYS has to make the first move. Left to myself, I can do silent withdrawl for hours, days, for all I know I could keep it up for years if he didn't put a stop to it. These days he can snap me out of it without much effort on his part, a few well-chosen words can melt me instantly. A good thrashing helps as well. Waiting for me to come back to him - no, that's not going to happen. I think your husband is on the wrong track entirely here.

Is your husband in charge or isn't he? If he's in charge then it's up to him to re-establish the connection. My husband has always been brilliant at fixing things, but he never could manage to fix me, because he didn't know how. Now he does know how, he can do it like he does anything else, with perfect ease and confidence. The words "I will not have you defying me, and I will not have you sulking at me" spoken in the right tone of voice, have an instantly melting effect on me. I am absolute putty in his hands.

But regard him as a god? I don't think so. He is very much flesh and blood, and I like him that way. I have no wish whatsoever to be married to a god. No good ever came of mortal women messing with gods, you only have to study the Greek myths to see that.

Louise

by Louise C on 2006 Sep 19 - 19:17 | login or register to post comments

Putting on the moves

Yeah, I can stay away until cobwebs form or the relationship ends myself. I figure if a man doesn't care enough to rescue me from my castle tower, then I don't want him to be the one to rescue me in the first place. Do you suppose guys go to their caves and women to their castle towers? I want my man to slay my dragon for me.

In all fairness, I should mention that he did try to come and get me by trying to hold me in bed, but the mood I was in the other night just woundn't stand for it. I asked him why he just didn't hold me anyway even though I was protesting, and he said that he wasn't going to force himself on me (which is noble, I suppose). He knows that I just need reasurrance that he loves me. The reason I wouldn't let him hold me was because I didn't feel like our conflict was resolved, and "IF" he was thinking he was going to get sex before our conflict was resolved, the only way he was going to get that was if he pushed it. Maybe that makes me difficult, but I was aggravated, and our connection was lost. If we did end up having sex, it would have been miserable for me under those conditions, and I would probably have felt used and let down.

I told him how I felt over the phone a little while ago in that I was angry and resentful because he let me suffer for so long, and he said he just didn't know what to do. I reminded him (as we have discussed this many times before) that he could always give me a spanking to make himself feel better, but he stated that he has tried that, and it doesn't make him feel better (as in helping him to come back from his cave). I told him that maybe it would have made me feel better, so now he came straight home and told me how I was going to get a spanking (guess he is trying) and that he wasn't kidding (because I grinned at him), but I'm not convinced as of yet. If he does it just for me and not for him, then he might as well forget it because that won't work either, even if he is trying (and that fact does make me feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside). He said he is angry with me for not trusting him like he said to do last night, and that is why I am going to get it. I told him trust has to be earned. He said that that trust will be earned tonight. Oh, he was very firm, but I feel like it must be some kind of a joke right now. Maybe he is putting on for me. Maybe my rear won't feel that way later. We shall see. We shall also see how consistent he is, and that will be the tell-all.

A frustrated Peach

by Peach on 2006 Sep 19 - 20:41 | login or register to post comments

Caves and towers

I am sorry about your difficulties. It is a pity that so far your husband hasn't got anything out of spanking you. Maybe that will change tonight? When I suggested to my husband that he could, if he wanted to, use spanking as punishment rather than just for erotic purposes,I had no idea how he would react, but he took to it with great enthusiasm, in fact so much so that I was slightly stunned at first, I got spanked more in the first week than in pre-Taken In Hand days I would have in a month, and harder and longer than ever before. The result of this has been that I have become a total spanking junkie, more than a couple of days without and I get extremely restive.

There is no question that it makes my husband feel better, but then he's never been much of a cave-dweller, more of an erupting volcano. When in pre-Taken In Hand days he would leave me alone when I was upset, I always wanted him to do something about it, though I wasn't sure what. He has always been far more vocal about expressing his feelings than I am, and translating rage into giving me a good walloping seems to work very well for him. Perhaps it just doesn't work so well if you are a withdrawing type. Also, in our relationship he has tended to be the one who has needed reassurance that I love him, I have tended to always take his love for granted, since he has always been so vocal about expressing it. I am sure that your husband does love you though, because he is obviously trying very hard to make your relationship work.

I hope that things will go well for you tonight, and that it will make both of you feel better (though if your husband should happen to take to it like mine did, you might find yourself wondering what you've started!)

Louise

by Louise C on 2006 Sep 20 - 12:32 | login or register to post comments

I agree.

Dear Katie,

You sound like a very good wife. I am a male and I too share your husband's view on spanking your wife. But I wouldn't spank you for "fun", I would only give you a spanking for punishment. I would do so in a "tasteful" manner. The spanking would be PRIVATE.

My ex-girlfriend admited to me that she needed a "strong male" in her life. She begged me to spank her for various problems she had. I was not real comfortable doing so at first, but I did it for her sake. I hated the whole process at first. I hated to cause her to cry, beg me to stop, etc. But she made me promise I would keep the whole punishment process up. I am glad there are real women out there who see that sometimes they need a good spanking.

Sonny

by Sonny on 2006 Nov 6 - 08:38 | login or register to post comments

Get control of her early

I have been spanked by my husband and i have to say it has made a big difference in our marriage. I unknowingly wanted this to happen for years, but kept it to myself because I was afraid to tell him I didn't want to be in control.

I am a mouthy 28 year old woman. I realize this!!

I have seen friends go outside their marriage and do things they have no right to do while their husband is at work.

I believe if the man gets control of his wife early, she wouldn't do these types of things.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2007 May 22 - 14:47 | login or register to post comments

I couldn't agree more...

*In response to the "Taken Reader" just above:

I couldn't agree more. I, too, am young and new in a relationship in terms of those finding "taken in hand". I am 26 year old woman in a committed relationship that has been going strong for 5 years. We've been engaged for 2, and we also have two toddler girls.

In the past, we were off/on high school sweethearts. I absolutely no respect for him then, nor did I through most of our current relationship. We truly do have a great relationship. He's my best friend as well as lover. I believe him to be my soulmate. Chris is loving, faithful, and supportive as a significant other, dedicated and hardworking as a provider, and the most sensitive and protective father. I couldn't ask for more than that. Never had I met someone who is so perfectly matched as my male counterpart. We also possess the coveted qualities that the other might not. So all-in-all, I think we are a womderful couple.

The main problem is that I want a take-charge man who can deal with me & my quirks and put me in my place when the time is necessary. I want someone to stand up to my brattiness. I am not bossy by nature, but "if allowed" I will wear the pants in the relationship. I don't, ultimately, know why I push to the top when the man doesn't say "no" and push back. I am beginning to believe that I am one of those women (found in *Saying "no", leadership and chocolate*) who need and even desire to be told "no" so that I can be simply reminded who has control. It doesn't have to always be physical. Sometimes just a "I'm not having that" look or a firm tone of voice would snap me right back to my obedient self. The connection can be easily reestablished if taken care of immediately and sternly.

I also agree with the NOT withholding spankings for all the same reasons. Being very new to this, I do not speak from experience, but as far as commonsense goes, it makes absolute sense. Even if a spanking and the attention that goes with it is the whole reason behind her bad behavior, take advantage of being the HOH and make her realize that it will ONLY be administered on YOUR terms, no matter how she behaves. I can also debate this statement by expressing that I do not think a brat should be able to "act out" because she's not getting the attention she wants. I am terrible for this. I require alot of attention, and I am trying to get better about not seeming so needy. Chris is definitely helping me realize when I am being overly demanding, bratty, short with the kids, or downright bitchy because I "feel" like I haven't gotten enough of his attention. He did this today as a matter of fact.

We were eating lunch with his best friend/coworker talking about a house that we are being shown tomorrow. Chris began elaborating on the details with Michael to fill him in on what we already knew. Jealousy began to rear it's ugly head, and on came the pouting, the huffing and puffing, and the vacant yet angry stare out into the crowded restaurant to avoid eye contact with Chris. He noticed me (as I knew he would), but instead of giving in, like he typically does, and talking to me as I was demanding from him by my actions, he stopped speaking, turned to me, and asked what my problem was. I was so caught off guard that I didn't know what to say. He didn't say this in a mean way, but it wasn't in his normally deep, passive voice. He showed me then that he would not tolerate me acting like a spoiled teenager, needing everyone's undivided attention. It wasn't necessary. We were out to lunch because he took the time to call and invite me to eat with them. We were sitting together and having a group conversation. Did I really NEED his attention? I was already getting it and being an ungrateful brat at the same time.

It may not have been a disciplinary spanking, but it was enough to turn me on. I adore when he shows enough love & affection to notice and put a stop to inappropriate behaviors/actions of mine. In my mind, he wouldn't discipline and correct me if he did not want the best for our relationship and our family life.

Tiffany Z

by tiffanyz on 2007 May 22 - 19:47 | login or register to post comments

Real Punishment

Mr. Tom,

I agree with you. Nothing is more sexy than a man who takes his role of HOH seriously and gives his wife a good hard spanking when she has it coming.

When my husband gives me a discipline spanking for disobeying him, I definitely don't want it but boy do I respect him for it afterwards. Nothing like a sore bottom to remind you who is in charge.

I think if all husbands acted like men, there would be far fewer divorces and a lot happier sex lives.

Teri

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2007 Jun 8 - 02:54 | login or register to post comments

mr abdul and mrs sameena abdul

"naturally for women it just sounds cruel that a man is holding spanking"

Naturally, that is good one. Most people in our western world do not think spanking a women is nature. That is the argument I used to be discussing.

"she is not as disobedient n disrespectfull but whenever she does so i realise that she is administering punishment for herself."

I understand this to mean that she is acting out only to recieve punishment, and where is the control in that.

i want to feel n make her feel it real

One way to do that is to not do it right away, promise authoritatively that you will punisher with a spanking, when it is convenient for you. The anticipation, with the promise of eventually getting the satisfaction of the spanking can be erotic.

"but i have my illusions,whenever she tells me after the punishment that she likes it i consider myself fool eventhough she starts obeying me n respecting me more."

This is a common thing among women in this type of relationship. The punishment is serving two purposes. It is causing her to like your dominance, and it is reforming her behavior. Do not feel a fool. You can be confident in the positive results you see.

"it should be real for me."

I understand, but it is not exactly like she is laughing in your face. She is probably enjoying being close to you. You are just lucky enough to have a women that enjoys feeling your dominance. Would you rather her resent you? hate you? or worse?

"but whenever i show my submissiveness to him in public he gets annoyed,he thinks that it projects him as a cruel man which in fact is not the case"

One things that helps is for me to think of not acting submissive in public as being obedient to his authority. I am submitting to his wishes to appear to be with a confident female.

by Good Girl on 2007 Jun 14 - 23:27 | login or register to post comments

She accepted herself.

I have to say from experience that telling my boyfriend when I was younger I wanted to be spanked sounded a little odd. But, he took it seriously and stuck by his decisions. I also have to admit I deserved every spanking I got. I got busted traveling at 120mph, I was constantly throwing things at people and swore like a sailor. I really didn't need those behaviors. It took my husband of 27 years to finally decide I was right. Now that he's gone. I find myself wondering if I will ever find another like they were.

I am a handful, I am intelligent, wise, and caring. I'm also a pain the butt for a man who can't stand up for himself. I find it a total let down when a man tells me I need a good sound spanking and I call his bluff. I always push a man to this limit. I want to see if he can deal with me. I like the feeling of having a man who is able to stand up to me when I'm acting like a brat. My nickname is Brat given to me by anyone who really knows me.

I feel no shame or guilt. I accept me for me. I just need a good spanking now and then to remind me I'm not the tough gal I think I am. It also gives me the secuity of knowing that nothing worse will happen to me if I decide to misbehave or act out. And it does allow for better sexual relations. A woman who feels secure also feels able to trust emotionaly and sexually.

Brat52

by Brat52 on 2007 Jun 15 - 01:37 | login or register to post comments

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