When rape is a gift

I know, I know, it's a dangerous title, and I'll get hatemail. So let me say straight away that on no account do I advocate or in any way condone rape or abuse of any kind. Indeed, I urge all women (and men!) to use whatever force is necessary to defend themselves against would-be rapists, muggers and murderers. The last stranger in the street to be so misguided as to think that I would make a good rape victim probably didn't end up in hospital, but judging from his screams as I incapacitated him, and the way he staggered as he made his escape, he probably regretted having picked me to mess with.

The sort of ‘rape’ that is a gift is the sort given by a man to the woman he loves because she wants it. Many women do.

Many men reading this will be feeling very uneasy. Nothing is guaranteed to bring a man out in a cold sweat faster than raising the subject of rape – except actually asking him to rape you, of course. “Oh, I could never do that!”, a man will say in a tone of alarm. No decent man wants to be a rapist.

But it's not rape and it's not immoral if the woman wants it. Is it?

It's a gift.

I have talked to a number of women about this over the years, and several have spoken of the deep gratitude they feel to the man who trusts and loves them enough to do this. These are dangerous waters, legally, so the man must trust the woman not to run to the police and cry “rape!” He must have the strength to risk making himself vulnerable in this way. He must have faith that she knows what she wants and is willing to take the risk. He must believe in his ability not to misjudge the situation, and in the woman's ability to deal with it well if he does. He must be willing to be profoundly and intensely intimate with the other person. And for some men, contemplating such action forces them to face their own dark and troubling desires – desires they fear make them a monster. All this takes courage, strength, trust, and nerves of steel. Not for the faint-hearted!

And not something to do cavalierly. Extreme caution is advised. If you are not careful, your gift could be the psychological equivalent of a lethal letter bomb. Do not proceed in haste. Be sure to discuss it thoroughly first, to ensure that, as one woman put it, you are on the same page. If she wants more of a set scene at an agreed time but you think she wants you to take her completely by surprise – such as by creeping up on her in the dead of night when she thinks you are on a business trip two continents away – things might not go quite as well as you'd hoped. When in doubt, discuss it explicitly and in great detail first. And assume that the two of you might be mistaken about it all, and be ready to backtrack, make changes, and (if you both desire it) try again.

But enough of all that. How can it possibly be a gift? What might be going through a woman's mind before, during and afterwards? How does she feel?

How she feels beforehand depends upon the individual circumstances, but she may well feel fear – and she may well want to feel fear. Her heart may be thumping, her adrenalin pumping, her mouth dry, her palms sweaty: an exhilarating sort of fear, not the fear of a victim. She may be experiencing the most intense desire to be taken she has ever felt: a desire made only more intense the more strongly she resists and fights.

She may feel the need to fight as hard as she can, while willing you to prevail. When you do, the physical shock may be indescribably exquisitely pleasurable. She may feel as though she has billions of nerve-endings she had never had before. She may have the most intense climax she has ever had. She may scream as you have never heard her scream before. You may notice that her whole body suddenly relaxes, submitting, welcoming, worshipping. The whole experience may leave her feeling absolutely ecstatic, utterly peaceful, deeply submissive, totally yours. Connected. You may see in her eyes deep love, reverence, awe, soft submissiveness, deep gratitude, adoration, and belonging. She may well be moved to tears.

Hold her. Stroke her hair. Kiss her softly. You have taken her. She is yours.

the boss

[A note about the comments on this thread: there is a bug in the software, such that the links to later comments do not work. To see the most recent comments on this thread, ensure that you have comments set to flat rather than threaded, and click on the last page link at the foot of this page.]

Taken In Hand Tour start | next

Have you seen the following articles?
An overview of Taken In Hand
The alpha male and masculine power
Learning the ropes
Who says you have to be submissive?
Equality isn't all it's cracked up to be
The difference between dominant and domineering
Acts of love
The Night Porter: movie review
Do you have a commanding presence?
The subjection of women

2004 Mar 15 - 14:49 | login or register to post comments | latest article | previous article | next article |

My experience

Last week, I had one of the most amazing sexual encounters I have had with my husband and this is in comparison with a normally great sex life. I wouldn't have used the word rape for it, but he was insistent, demanding, urgent and rough. It was like rape in that I felt like I had no control. He took me and my body responded. I had no sense of having any conscious choice about it. It was incredibly erotic and gave me a new understanding for women who have rape fantasies.

I don't usually think in terms of rape imagery, because I believe so strongly in my husband's right to my body. It is not possible for him to rape me because he has automatic consent. I can't get into rape fantasies because they involve imagining that I would withhold myself from my husband and that is too disturbing an idea for me. However, now I have a better grasp of its appeal. Rape is the ultimate in forceful, dominating sex.

JK

by LadyK on 2004 Mar 15 - 15:22 | login or register to post comments

Objectification

the boss:

I read your post. I have to say I'm disappointed to see you contributing to the problem of the Objectification & Fethishization of Women. I ask you to consider if this post furthers the cause - of Women or of DD, if you do you'll see its innapropriate to make a Woman into an Object. When a Woman Herself posts this kind of misogynistic material its a sad day. Its' just this kind of material that in the wrong hands lights the fires of Rapists. Making love should be exactly that, this is a far cry from the love & intimacy a Man and Woman can share.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 15 - 17:20 | login or register to post comments

Re: Objectification

Thank you for your comments. I do hope that you are mistaken in thinking that my article might have the effect you fear, and I have no wish to contribute to the problem of rape. Nor do I want to upset anyone. You wrote:

I'm disappointed to see you contributing to the problem of the Objectification & Fethishization of Women. I ask you to consider if this post furthers the cause - of Women or of DD, if you do you'll see its innapropriate to make a Woman into an Object. When a Woman Herself posts this kind of misogynistic material its a sad day.
I must confess to feeling a little puzzled by this criticism. I am at rather a loss to know what you might mean by this suggestion that I am making women into fetishistic objects. A woman is not an object abnormally stimulating desire, she is desirable quite normally and naturally – just as a man is! In a sense, each is an object, and a jolly good thing too! It does not seem to me to be in any way desirable not to be an object of desire. Yes, of course we are more than that, but let's not deny that we are also objects of desire.

To accept that women and men are (or can be) objects stimulating desire is in no way to hate them or in any way disrespect them; it is just a fact.

It does not threaten me or upset me to be objectified in this way. Why should it?! If you want to argue that being an object of desire puts you at risk of being raped, well, perhaps there may be some truth in that. But if so, the answer is not to start wearing a bulky boilersuit, never bathing, and so on (which would presumably reduce your appeal a bit), the answer is to learn self-defence and not to wander around the bad area of town alone at 11 o'clock on a Friday night.

Forgive me, but I do not really see how all this relates to my article. The article assumed that it is the woman asking her man to ‘rape’ her, not the other way around. The point was to help men understand why a woman might want this, or rather, how it could possibly feel like a gift to the woman. And whilst it might not be to your taste, and you might not experience it as a powerfully intimate interaction, I assure you, many couples do.

It is tempting to judge the experiences and desires of others. I am sure we all do it sometimes. But when you find yourself reacting with distaste to something others finds valuable, I personally think that it is worth trying to assume that there is something you do not understand, rather than leaping to the conclusion that those others have Deep Psychological Problems. :-)

by the boss on 2004 Mar 15 - 18:24 | login or register to post comments

The Voice of Reason?

the boss, I accept that you are being the voice of reason when you say "So let me say straight away that on no account do I advocate or in any way condone rape or abuse of any kind." I'm sorry, but that doesn't quite ring true to me. You are condoning and advocating a *certain* kind of rape and you continue to refer to it as rape throughout the article, so don't say one thing and do another unless you want to be called on it. The fact that it isn't *abusive* rape is irrelevant if you continue to refer to it as rape. I would have thought you'd give it a less inflamatory term, but evidently you like shocking people.

You are using terminology that has quite distinct mainstream meanings in a fashion designed to relate to TakenInHand relationships. There are bound to be issues with that.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 15 - 18:51 | login or register to post comments

Rape fantasies

I've always had rape fantasies. I like to read rape erotic fiction too. I used to worry about it, but I've read of so many women who admit to secretly thinking about it and books like My Secret Garden where the rape fantasy is listed as one of the top fantasies for women, I realize I'm not in a minority.

I know I would hate actually being raped. In fact, I would not hesitate to try and kill a stranger who tried to rape me, but then, most real rapes have nothing to do with sex and everything to do with violence.

I think the reason this idea is so powerful for so many women is that many (most?) women are taught while growing up that our sexual desires are wrong or dirty. Certainly not something to be freely expressed. I remember in junior high and high school, the sneering way the "good girls" gossiped about the "slutty girls".

So here is this dichotomy within many women. Most of us have natural, strong sexual urges, but if you act upon them, all society judges you. What to do? Well, my young and fertile imagination started imagining a man who overpowered me and *made* me take his supposedly unwanted attentions. This freed me from having to bear the shame of my desires. Now it was his fault, wasn't it? Not mine; I was still a good girl.

Again, nobody wants to be truly raped. True rape is about violence, not sex.

But as a sexy fantasy that allows the woman to be as free as she wants without fear of being judged, they can't be beat, IMO.

As far as trying to make the fantasy "real" with a beloved partner, alas, I've been unable to make it come true. I love my husband and even when he's tried to pretend to rape me as I've requested he do, he can't, really. I'm always open and available to him. The "rape" part lasts for about one second and then I succumb. :-) So this fantasy will always stay a fantasy. As many fantasies no doubt should.

by Amber on 2004 Mar 15 - 19:01 | login or register to post comments

Hmmmm

Hmmm - you certainly know how to write an attention grabbing headline, the boss.

As for the subject itself, I have to confess to some ambivalence. One of the reasons I like the idea of a Taken In Hand style relationship (at least partially) is because I look towards the role of looking after my partner. The above, on the face of it, would go against that completely.

I would need to be VERY convinced by my partner that this was something she wanted. I am very open minded, and enjoy fantasies as much as the next male, but forced sex can be a very difficult one to handle. IF my partner truly wanted this, if she trusted me enough to ask me to do it, then I would give it serious consideration. When all is said and done, despite the appearences, if it is done with consent then it is NOT rape - just one more role-play fantasy. None-the-less, as I write this, I still feel uncomfortable with the idea.

Thanks for provoking some interesting lines of thought, but as I said at the start - I remain ambivalent, and would require my partner at the time to convince me that this was something she TRULY wanted before I would ever take any action.

by Paul on 2004 Mar 15 - 19:04 | login or register to post comments

law

did you mean to decry a woman who goes to the police if her husband rapes her? if not why did you link in your post to the discussion where sudolly was saying its ok to involve the Law if your husbands abusive,

may i remind you its ILLEGLE

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 15 - 19:11 | login or register to post comments

Form vs. substance

Thanks for commenting, Paul.

Paul wrote:

As for the subject itself, I have to confess to some ambivalence. One of the reasons I like the idea of a Taken In Hand style relationship (at least partially) is because I look towards the role of looking after my partner. The above, on the face of it, would go against that completely.
This is to mistake form for substance. What matters must be whether or not there is full, free, real consent, not the interaction's overt characteristics.

by the boss on 2004 Mar 15 - 19:26 | login or register to post comments

rape fantasies

I agree with Paul that sex that is desired and requested by the woman cannot be rape. It's a fantasy, but it's one that she wants to be as realistic as possible. Although I can't personally empathize with rape fantasies, I think they have much in common with discipline fantasies where we want to be "taken in hand" against our will. There is always an underlying consent and desire for what's happening, otherwise it would be wrong. But when forced surrender is essential to the fantasy, we push that consent and desire as far back in our minds as we can. To call it anything other than rape would wreck it for those who desire this.

There are many sexual tastes that I cannot empathize with at all, meaning that I cannot "get into it," I cannot feel a sexual turn-on from it. But I can certainly empathize with having sexual tastes that are different from the norm. I can understand the general principle that different people are turned on by different things, and that doesn't make any of us "sick." I think we're all better off accepting and trying to understand one another.

Pretty ballsy article, the boss!

Melanie

by Melanie on 2004 Mar 15 - 19:43 | login or register to post comments

Irresponsible

What you're doing is irresponsible pure and simple. Not once is your entire article did you mention consent or having a safeword. I have to question the motives of anyone, man or woman, who advocates playing hardcore rape scenes without a safeword. And where's the "wear a condom"? What about AIDS? Remember: Safe, Sane and Consensual?

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 16 - 01:32 | login or register to post comments

My Comments

I've had a few women ask me to rape them. I've never been able to get over the thought that it's a morally repugnant thing to do to a woman. I know in theory if she wants it, it's OK, but that doesn't make it any easier to do in practice. How could I do that? It's monstrous. Carnal. Animal. Selfish. I care too much to be able to rape a woman, and frankly, if she needs to be rapes I'd say she's got issues she needs to work on.

SSC Dom

by SSCDOM on 2004 Mar 16 - 01:59 | login or register to post comments

I hunger for rape

As a woman, I want to thank you for having had the balls to speak about this subject. It's telling that all the women on the board who have responded are sympathetic or tolerant, while the men are the ones that have a problem with it.

I will bear witness to my own hunger for rape here. Yes guys, I hunger for it. If my man would do it for me more - and more wholeheartedly when he does - I'd be so happy. Why is it men think we're china dolls?

For me it's not about letting go of inhibitions or letting him take responsibility, it's about passionate love, a man and a woman, a primal force between them, intimacy, and ecstasy.

I want the violence of it, the battle of bodies and the triumph of my mind. Elation. Strength - my own as well as his. Extremity. Being on the edge. The fight for me is a bodily representation of the love we share. The harder the fight and the more intense things get, the more connecting it is, the more love is felt.

To those who find it distasteful: just think of it as rough sex and it won't seem so bad, OK?

FiBi

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 16 - 02:29 | login or register to post comments

Get off your high horses

To all who are giving the boss a hard time....get over yourselves! Nobody is asking you personally to participate in a rape scene; the boss merely brought up a very real desire for many women to experiment with such a scary and thrilling turn-on.

If you don't like that personally, fine. Say it's not for you. Run along and have your sweet and gentle sex. Nobody's stopping you. But knock it off with the all the comments about her piece being "irresponsible" "objectifying" "misogynistic" "illegal" (note spelling) and blah blah blah.

This is a site which discusses all kinds of male/female dynamics, sexual issues, relationship issues, and fantasies in an open and honest way. If any of you took the time to do some actual research, you'd find that sexual fantasies where the woman is forced to have sex is extremely common among perfectly normal and healthy women (yes, I said among *women*), if not often publically admitted to.

After reading all these comments, I can see why so many women are reticent to bring it up. Honestly!

Boss, if you want to delete my comment as being too rude, go ahead, but really! AIDS and condoms indeed... Is this the Taken In Hand site or the Planned Parenthood site?

by Amber on 2004 Mar 16 - 03:01 | login or register to post comments

Fantasies and the Law

Most fantasies involving seemingly non-consensual control, if enacted, are illegal, especially if there is any hint of violence involved. So, if any such violence is to be enacted for the mutual pleasure of the couple involved, there must be an incredible amount of trust in the relationship, particularly for the man, because he is risking the most.

A long time ago, I had a relationship with a woman that I totally trusted. Due to the fact that I was incredibly naive at the time, if she suggested that she wanted such a thing in our relationship, it is quite possible that we both could have enjoyed it. Even in those days, though, I would never have raised the subject myself.

Nowadays, with the pathetic state our society is in, where if the man even INITIATES sex it can be considered rape, I would be very hesitant to consider such a request.

KrosRogue

by KrosRogue on 2004 Mar 16 - 05:58 | login or register to post comments

Re: Irresponsible

Oh REALLY!! I agree that any scene taking place between people who are not in a committed, long-term relationship should definitely show an awareness for AIDS and should definitely following the Safe, Sane and Consensual rule. HOWEVER, I am certain that the boss is talking about "rape" taking place between a couple who are either married or in a committed long-term relationship and who already have a huge level of trust between them.

I know personally that if I were to bring up the subject of my husband "raping" me that it would seem ridiculous to starting talking about AIDS and the like - my husband and I are NOT total strangers meeting in a club or something!

I know after saying this that I might be up for some pretty strong comments about being "irresponsible" but I do feel that people should read articles more carefully and really consider what the author is trying to say before posting a response. I don't think the boss is advocating sticking a personal ad in the paper asking for some unknown man to "break" into her house and rape her!

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 16 - 09:29 | login or register to post comments

You have to live!

KrosRogue wrote:

[I]f she suggested that she wanted such a thing in our relationship, it is quite possible that we both could have enjoyed it. Even in those days, though, I would never have raised the subject myself.

Nowadays, with the pathetic state our society is in, where if the man even INITIATES sex it can be considered rape, I would be very hesitant to consider such a request.

From what you have said before, I can understand your position on this, but I can't help thinking that sometimes one can take this fear of the law too far. I personally prefer the quiet life to finding myself on the sharp end of the law, so who am I to talk?

But I think I'd have to draw the line at allowing mad and immoral laws against harmless consensual acts to stop me living my life. Life is so short, and there is so much to do before it's too late. Living under the weight of the fear of legal or other coercion is crippling; it is a pernicious poison.

OTOH, this is no doubt easy to say and a lot harder to do if you have found yourself on the sharp end of the legal system at some point.

by the boss on 2004 Mar 16 - 10:45 | login or register to post comments

Unknown man

I don't think the boss is advocating sticking a personal ad in the paper asking for some unknown man to "break" into her house and rape her!

LOL! Now there's a thought!

It is quite astounding to me that what I wrote bears the interpretations some posters have put on it. Mind boggling. Oh well!

by the boss on 2004 Mar 16 - 10:53 | login or register to post comments

"Rape" is a loaded word

There have been a few responses to the boss's article that left me feeling, "Huh? Did this person just read the same thing that I did?" However, I find that understandable. I think that "rape" is such an emotionally loaded word that using it tends to provoke emotional rather that rational reactions. It is not surprising that some people might not calmly and carefully read the article to see what point the boss was making.

JK

by LadyK on 2004 Mar 16 - 13:01 | login or register to post comments

Interesting Thought

From a male perspective I can see a great fire storm of controversy with in this subject. To some degree I fall along the same lines as the boss and many others who really see this not as a "rape" but as a "role playing scenerio" for partnered couples especially those who are married.

I can give testimony that my wife often times has shown her pleasure when I in jest or play have spoken forcibly to her about removing her clothes and "forcing" her to have sex with me. Granted she doesn't kick or fight back, but she is highly aroused at the thought of being forced to have sex and the removal of her clothing against her will.

One time I asked her if she would like to be "raped" (in the context of knowing it was me with her permission) and she gave a definite answer of no. I feel like some of the other writers in this thread that somehow my wife feels uninhibited when "forced". However, because of her generally conservative views on sex and sexuality she won't or can't give in to her true desires.

Let me say in closing that my wife or I ever advocate "rape" or "foced" sex even in a marriage relationship. But in the confines of a strong CONSENSUAL relationsip some may truly find release for the soul and a true erotic experience.

by Head of House on 2004 Mar 16 - 14:49 | login or register to post comments

Thanks, Amber!

I hope the boss does NOT delete your comment, because you saved me the trouble of writing the exact same thoughts! Sometimes it's just too tiresome to write responses to people who totally miss the point of an article and just have their own agenda waiting to leap out at you!

If we can't talk about edgy stuff here, where can we talk about it? the boss warned people to stay away from the article if it might offend them, which was considerate of her.

Melanie

by Melanie on 2004 Mar 16 - 15:11 | login or register to post comments

Tempest in a teapot

If the woman does not object to her treatment by the man of her choice, why should anyone else? Rape occurs when various aggressive acts are perpetrated by a man not of the woman's choice. Thus, when the acts committed are consistent with her wishes, third party interference is little more than hand wringing histrionics that should be relegated to the overacted silent film era.

Even worse, pretentious protests over one woman's fantasies by some self-appointed politically correct thought police reveal the hypocrisy of radical feminist intellectual goons - for whom the only *choice* a woman should be permitted is to despise men and abort children.

by Noone on 2004 Mar 16 - 16:26 | login or register to post comments

Fantasy or Reality?

Thank you to the boss for such a brave and thought provoking article! I'm interested to know, however, whether you are writing from the perspective of the "rape" being fantasy role-play or whether the woman has basically given her partner/husband consent to rape her within the context of a dominant/submissive relationship?

I would also be interested to know how you bring up this subject with your husband? Suddenly saying "darling I want you to rape me" seems a bit, well, blunt! LOL

Many thanks!

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 16 - 18:33 | login or register to post comments

Re: Fantasy or Reality?

I was asked:

Thank you the boss for such a brave and thought provoking article! I'm interested to know, however, whether you are writing from the perspective of the "rape" being fantasy role-play or whether the woman has basically given her partner/husband consent to rape her within the context of a dominant/submissive relationship?
Whether we are talking about being taken in hand or being taken, some women prefer the idea of fantasy role-play, while for others, that idea would destroy the whole experience and they prefer the idea of ‘blanket consent’. It depends on the person.
I would also be interested to know how you bring up this subject with your husband? Suddenly saying "darling I want you to rape me" seems a bit, well, blunt! LOL
I have certainly spoken to women who have been unable to bring themselves to express their desire to their husband. Given the unease most men seem to feel about it, this is not surprising. But it is sad. I hope that this article will help!

by the boss on 2004 Mar 16 - 21:33 | login or register to post comments

please tell me this is a joke

Oh dear, where to begin?

First of all, school works are piling on me so I confess I haven't read through this whole thread.

Rape-fantasy is not rape; rough-sex with conset is not rape, it's just robust plays that DEMANDS two reflexive, mature and responsible individuals being very clear on what they are doing. I am very in touch with my sexuality and I do belong to local groups where these kind of fantasies are occassionally enacted in a safe sane and consensual environment, with monitors, staffs, and first aids attendents to help ensure safety and aftercare. I have absolutely no squalm about consenting adults who like to play rough or even * * * enact * * * rape scene. In fact, I am very proud and impressed with these people, whom are in touch with their sexuality, and proud of their desires and bodies, despite social conditionings.

But to write an article featuring "rape is a gift," signing yourself with a woman's name, without even mentioning consent and safeword ... I am sorry to say, writings like these make almost feel ashamed to identify myself as a submissive.

Someone mentioned rape is a "loaded word," well, it's loaded because it precisely means sex without consent or sex despite clear rejection, or under some form of threat, such as threat of violence.

Would any woman who ACTUALLY WANTS REAL RAPE please explain to me what she means she actually wants it? Like, not a fantasy, not a chasing and fighting game with prearranged consent, but true coercion of sex upon a woman without any form of consent, and/or despite her explicit resistance?

Someone a while ago commented that "Taken In Hand philosophy is not for you" [if you are willing to invoke law under any circumstansis], and my first reaction is, "excuse me but who are you to tell me what philosophy I live by?"

But [if] Taken In Hand means condoning objectification and subordination and subjugation of women, if Taken In Hand means advocating rape - not just rape FANTASY, mind you - if Taken In Hand philosophy means spreading message that women actually like rape, and that they will actually appreciate it after the fight; if Taken In Hand means advocating that when women say no they don't really mean no; if Taken In Hand advocates that the way to "win a woman's heart" is to go against her will and violate her civil rights, because once she is subjected to your violence she will eventually turn around, I am glad to say, NO, Taken In Hand is NOT for me.

You know, many cultures have treated women like sh!t for centuries. I can't be grateful enough for equality movements. If anyone tries to consent for all woman by claiming that "they actually like it, being a rapist make you a strong, dominant man," I am not going to sit around and take it.

Submission is a gift, when robbed, all the values are destroyed.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 16 - 22:37 | login or register to post comments

personal clearification statement

I understand this site has a high hit rate and huge audience - let me state my stance very clearly, as a 23 year old young woman who is neither shy nor dishonest nor confused about her sexuality:

I do not appreciate rape. You might or might not be able to subdue my physical body in a physical confrontation, regardless, I will not turn around to "worship" you. You are kidding yourself if you think you can give me any form of pleasure through rape, I don't care how much lube you use, it's still gonna hurt.

On the other hand, I have nothing but respect for gentlemens who are in touch with their sexuality, loving and considerate to their partners, sensible about their actions and safety, and tread risk-involving activities with utter care. Rape fantasy can be fun and exciting, only when you are very clear what you are doing. If you are uncertain that it is a fantasy, I think it is VERY WISE that you refrain from doing it until you and your partner have got it sorted out.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 16 - 23:08 | login or register to post comments

Re: Re: Irresponsible

The author of Re: Irresponsible says, " HOWEVER, I am certain that the boss is talking about "rape" taking place between a couple who are either married or in a committed long-term relationship and who already have a huge level of trust between them. "

So do you consider rape a okay thing to do as long as people invloved are not strangers, such as husband and wife, or boyfriend and girlfriend -even though they arranged no consent into rough sexual plays. Am I correct?

FYI, most rapes happen between people who know each other. Rapes by a total strange are far and few in between.

I thought my previous disagreement with other users in this site was due to a misunderstanding about whether consent is given in the situation discussed. After reading through this thread, it is clear that some of you are actually advocating sex without consent and/ or despite clear rejection and resistance.

I disagree. Sex without consent between husband and wife or acquaintances is still rape.

So for all the men out there reading this thread, toying with the idea, I am telling YOU, at least SOME of us DON'T want real rape, even though we might like rape fantasy. I don't care if you are my husband, boy friend, whatever... I have a reminder for you: the law is on my side, and it is so for some very good reasons.

So think twice before you make a haste decision, last time I heard, rape criminals are subjected to some pretty rough justice within penal institutions.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 16 - 23:34 | login or register to post comments

Hi MR.G from across the stree

Hi MR.G from across the street at the Lit - How To Forums.

Interesting reading. One problem. You last bit..."Rape is the ultimate in forceful, dominating sex. " As an ex-cop I have to say that rape is the ultimate in forceful, dominating VIOLENCE. It has little to do with sex.

That said the fantasy of rape, the idea of being pounced on by a lover and "raped" is obviously a huge turn on for many. The force and being out of control and the fact that your lover wants you that badly and NOW..! is also part of the turn on. I'm sure there are dozens of other factors involved too.

Any woman who gets hot thinkiing about forceful/rape/sex with a lover and wants to describe how she feels in a forum should be encouraged not piddled on because she's NOT being PC by some milquetoast standard!

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 16 - 23:37 | login or register to post comments

WTF?

Sudolly suggested: "these kind of fantasies" should be "enacted in a safe sane and consensual environment, with monitors, staffs, and first aids attendents to help ensure safety and aftercare."

Is she being raped by a bull, or what?

A herd of bison?

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 17 - 00:20 | login or register to post comments

Sudolly's concerns

Sudolly, you wrote:

Rape-fantasy is not rape; rough-sex with conset is not rape, it's just robust plays that DEMANDS two reflexive, mature and responsible individuals being very clear on what they are doing.
I agree. And no one has posted anything inconsistent with this. I tried to make it clear right at the beginning of my piece that it is not about anything unwanted. I may not have used the word "consent" but since the entire article was about giving the woman who wants this what she wants, it did not occur to me that anyone who read it would think that I was advocating anything non-consensual, unwelcome, unwanted. I specifically talked about the importance of ensuring that you have a very clear understanding of what the woman WANTS. WANTING = consent, doesn't it?!
But to write an article featuring "rape is a gift," signing yourself with a woman's name, without even mentioning consent and safeword ... I am sorry to say, writings like these make almost feel ashamed to identify myself as a submissive.
Sudolly, for many women, myself included, this is not a game, and having a safeword would destroy what we are trying to do. If you want to use a safeword, do! But not everyone does. If I were with a man I feared might be insensitive to my wishes (let alone abusive!!) I'd simply leave him. A safeword is not going to save you if you have an untrustworthy man. And if you have a decent, trustworthy man who is not devoid of sensitivity, a safeword adds nothing.

If it makes you feel safer, have one. I think each of us has to live our lives the way we as individuals think best. That means you with your safewords, and me with my deep trust and no safewords.

But [if] Taken In Hand means condoning objectification and subordination and subjugation of women, if Taken In Hand means advocating rape - not just rape FANTASY, mind you - if Taken In Hand philosophy means spreading message that women actually like rape, and that they will actually appreciate it after the fight; if Taken In Hand means advocating that when women say no they don't really mean no; if Taken In Hand advocates that the way to "win a woman's heart" is to go against her will and violate her civil rights, because once she is subjected to your violence she will eventually turn around, I am glad to say, NO, Taken In Hand is NOT for me.
Luckily, Sudolly, it is not about any of those things. It is about love, deep intimacy, special connection, warmth, life, excitement, trust, belonging, longing, for ever, for fun, laughter, a lightness of being, mutual respect, reverence, adoration, kindness, gentleness, softness, tenderness, wanting, caring, and consent consent consent – and yes, sometimes, for some readers, it is about wild abandon, violent primordial passion, ecstasy, the sharing of the most intense, intimate, thrilling experience, taking and being taken. And some readers want to call that ‘rape’.

I know it can be difficult to look at the spirit of what is being said, when the words used to talk about it are emotive, but try. You might be pleasantly surprised. I do hope so.

by the boss on 2004 Mar 17 - 01:07 | login or register to post comments

Re: WTF

I never said this kind of fantasy *should be* enacted with presence of monitors and safety staff. Those are your words, not mine. I certainly think enacting those fantasies in such environment is appropriate, but you seem to imply that I claimed it has to be - which is not the case.

I am stating that I have experiences with people who ocassionally engage in those scenes, and I have nothing but respect for them. I think they are cool, I think they are daring, loving, respectful.

Of course you can enact rape fantasy without monitors and first aid attendents etc, if both partners are sane enough to tell fantasy from reality, to arrange consent before hand, I have no problem with it. In short, I have no problem with enactment of fantasy of any sort between consenting adults. I don't even have a problem with consenting cannibalist / cannibalee ingesting each other.

What I am decrying is the advocating real rape, with no pre-arranged consent, with blatant disregard of the VICTIM's will, her resistance, her civil rights.

I continue to be surprised by the childish ad hominem attacks directed towards me by readers and authors on this site. No, I have not been raped by a bull, if you disagree with *my* point, say so in rational way and we can discuss like civil individuals. Personal attacks like this only decrease the credibility of your own claims, and phrases like "WTF" serves no purpose but to make yourself look childish.

-sudolly

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 17 - 02:06 | login or register to post comments

Re: the boss

Hello to the boss,

Thank you for a well articulated response.

I continue to feel uneasy about your claim that "this is not a game" - I can accept if you mean you want to make it realistic and not done with tongue in cheek and end with a giggle. But fantasy still needs to be separated from reality, IMO. Would you please clearify what do you mean when you said it is "not a game"?

For example, I might desire a partner who disciplines me whether I like it or not, when I trust him enough, I give him this permission - a consent that in future, he can use force when I violate a certain set of rules.

I might come home after a rough day at school, with a fever,bad headache, and super sensitive skin and aching muscle. But he still decides I need to be punished for my 4 weeks late report right away.

Because there is consent that we agreed upon from, say, 6 months ago, I will not feel violated if he carries out the punishment despite my discomforts.

But if he is just a partner whom I ocassionally consent to play with, he now sees an opening to dominate me, but I am *REALLY* not in the mood. I fight him, lo-and-behold ...

I think I will feel mighty violated and disrespected in teh second case, precisely because there is no previous arrangement of consent.

I am sorry I have to go now, I hope to write more when I have more time later. Thanx again for a well versed and calm response regarding a very sensitive issue.

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 17 - 02:22 | login or register to post comments

Rape is rape, not a gift!

I am shaking my head with disbelief and disgust when I read this. My oh my, how wicked our society has become when the act of rape and fantasy of it are blended. This mentality expressed here, brings back to memory my study of the Roman Empire, how the concept of morality became so dissolved in abominations, they didn't even understand what they did was wrong.

I think many of the people reading here need to know what the definition of rape is, lest it be forgotten or skewed in meaning. It's the forced abuse or destruction of something or somebody else. Forced means it's against the will of the other party, NOT CONSENSUAL! Acting out rape fantasy is not rape. You may fantasize about being ravished and dominated by the man or he may fantasize about ravishing his mate but that is not the same as being raped.

A girlfriend or wife who shares a fantasy with her mate is not the same thing as a stranger forcing destructive or unwanted behavior on another human being. You people flippantly use the word rape like it's a forbidden fruit to be enjoyed not shunned. Rape is a disgusting, selfish, irresponsible act it is not a night of great sex in a controlled atmosphere.

I don't think its normal for a woman to fantasize about rape. Maybe it's normal for women who enjoy evil, but good women do not fantasize about rape. The studies that suggest many women fantasize of being raped just shows how generations of immorality has twisted the minds of women.

You have to be a very disturbed or misguided individual to want to even role-play rape. What an insult to women who have been actually raped, their lives altered by the brutal act of it. It's also disrespect to the hundreds of thousands of men whose lives have been ruined by women who falsely accuse them of rape. The justice system ruthlessly destroys men who are victims of the malice and revenge of bitter women. Do the same women who fantasize about being raped, fantasize about falsely accusing a man of rape if the fantasy doesn't go quite as she planned or hoped?

How would it sound if I (a man) said; I fantasize about raping a woman. Pretty disgusting and disturbing, isn't it? Or would you say it's ok for a woman to fantasize of rape but not ok for a man?

I really hope a couple has more dignity and morality to keep the bedroom a place to share fluids in the act of passionate, loving sex; not a place to fantasize about ripping genitals apart and shedding blood in the act of rape.

If you want to have rough sex, feel free. But don't disrespect real victims by using the term "rape" as your fantasy. You do not fantasize of rape, you want to be dominated and ravished by a lover. These are two different things entirely. Rape is NEVER a gift, being taken by your man willingly is.

People need to stop saying they fantasize about being raped and admit they just want great sex. I know if I had a wife who asked me to rape her, I would bend her over my knee right then, give her one real long spanking, and make sure she never took the idea of rape for granted again.

Shame on you the boss, you should know better than this!

by Ramileous on 2004 Mar 17 - 03:54 | login or register to post comments

Do you fantasize about killing or beating men up too?

Another thing I noticed in your subject the boss. You seemed to recognize how dangerous your fantasy is, then you even gave us a not so pleasant look at what you would do to a man who tried to rape you. Tell us, do you fantasize about killing or beating men up too? I imagine if women think about how great it would be to be raped, they likely dream about how it would be to destroy a man. It gives them a sense of power, thats a big thing today for women, is power over men.

The same women who fantasize of immoral things through life likely get in situations to that end. When those fantasies go bad then either they or another foolish person gets hurt. This is one reason why our society is so messed up today. Men and Women take dignity and morality for granted or ignore it all together. You get women who have to abort a baby they didnt want, or women will accuse men of rape because he went too far. This stuff really happens and to see a woman flauting this fantasy around worries me. It certainly brings into question her credibility.

by Ramileous on 2004 Mar 17 - 04:16 | login or register to post comments

Perhaps there is an alternative term

I've been reading this thread with much interest, it certainly has proven volitile. I'll admit to my own fantasy's of what I call rape f**king. You may or may not approve of this term, but for me it takes into consideration both the fantasy of losing control and consent. I have also been fortunate enough to have a wonderful man who helped me to voice these fantasys and explore some of them in a very trusting, safe environment. Being a law enforcement official, he also helped me to develop safety habits to prevent becoming the victim of a rape. And while anyone who attempted to rape me outside the context of my fantasy would quickly find himself on the receiving end of my pepper spray canister, I can honestly say that the experiences I had within the context of my fantasy were absolutely mind blowing.

I'm sorry if parts of this make no sense, it's 2:30 in the morning, and I've been on my feet for 12 hours. the boss, I'm glad you opened this topic up, if nothing else it's provided some respite from winter doldrums.

by Anna Grace on 2004 Mar 17 - 08:27 | login or register to post comments

Learning How to Live

the boss,

It's all about trust and love. None of this is really possible outside of that context.

Of course, none of the trust and love is possible until I finish rebuilding myself. This will take some time, and I am getting impatient. I just hope this lack of serenity doesn't cause me to unduly rush the process.

KrosRogue

by KrosRogue on 2004 Mar 17 - 09:36 | login or register to post comments

Re: Rape is rape, not a gift!

You said:

I don't think its normal for a woman to fantasize about rape. Maybe it's normal for women who enjoy evil, but good women do not fantasize about rape. The studies that suggest many women fantasize of being raped just shows how generations of immorality has twisted the minds of women.

I'm sorry to tell you this but many women DO fantasise about rape - in fact it's probably the most common female fantasy there is! I find your comments that "good" women don't enjoy these sorts of fantasies, (only "evil" women) frankly, insulting. I consider myself to be "good" - I'm a good and loving mother, a loving, caring wife and I certainly don't go around being "evil"!!

You also say:

You have to be a very disturbed or misguided individual to want to even role-play Rape

Reading through this thread, I would say that the posts show some very coherent and mature responses. I haven't seen one that made me think "uh-oh" nutter alert!" - certainly nothing that made me think any of these people are "disturbed" and "misguided".

And...

How would it sound if I (a man) said; I fantasize about raping a woman. Pretty disgusting and disturbing, isn't it?

I would say that if you were the type of guy who got a kick out of attacking some defenceless woman on her way home, beating the sh!t out of her and raping her then, yes, I would be disturbed and disgusted. If your the type of guy that, whilst in the context of a long term and loving relationship, had the balls to share his fantasies (whatever they were!) then I wouldn't think you were disgusting or disturbing.

I'm sorry, but "me feel you doth protest too much". Tossing comments around that people who have "rape" fantasies are "misguided", "evil" or "disgusting" just suggests to me someone who in fact DOESN'T think these things at all! Just someone who is ashamed of what they DO feel.

Of course I could be wrong and I apologise in advance if I am. I understand that, for example, some deeply religious people would view this as being disgusting and "dirty". However, you can't go around calling people evil, disgusting and misguided just because they have views that don't fit in with yours.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 17 - 09:53 | login or register to post comments

What next?

I never expected to see a man taken to task for finding rape evil and disgusting. I think the world would be a better place if every man had the same visceral reaction to the word "rape" that Ramileous does.(By the way, I have seen his writings elsewhere, so I can tell you that he is a deeply religious person.)

I can relate to the desire for being dominated and overpowered by a man that could lead to rape fantasies. However, I certainly can't object to anyone saying that real rape is evil. Is it really that far-fetched to say that it is so evil that people should not even fantasize about it?

JK

by LadyK on 2004 Mar 17 - 13:00 | login or register to post comments

Naive article

I was really disapointed to read this article.

I have been raped. Legally, rape is penetration without consent. My experience involved being knifed too. I don't think you have any comprehension about the "type of woman" would be rapists prey on or of what is involved in the act. I was informed by the police that I wasn't a "normal" victim. I'm tall and confident, I look the type to fight back and probably in the absence of a rather large chef's knife, would have. Fat lot of good not being the "normal" victim did me though.

Rape is not a sexual act. It is an act of the purest form of abuse and violence. By its definition, it is non-consensual, you can't want it.

Lots of women, me included, have fantasies about rough sex, being taken by surprise by the man they love. No woman in her right mind wants to be put through the experience of rape.

Your article lets you down.

Honeybee

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 17 - 14:12 | login or register to post comments

Re: What next?

What I actually found offensive is the fact that he was suggesting that women who had these fantasies were "evil" and "immoral". I am neither of these things (whatever my sexual fantasies may involve!)and I (and I would imagine most women who have these sort of fantasies!) object to being labelled thus. You're right - real rape is evil and disgusting - but that's not what this guy was saying - he was saying it was evil and wrong to have "rape" fantasies.

Obviously his strong religious beliefs are leading to him insulting normal, moral, good women (who just happen to have sexual fantasies that he finds dirty). That, I'm afraid, I find totally unacceptable.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 17 - 14:16 | login or register to post comments

Why are the women here more accepting?

I'm willing to bet that men have as many rape fantasies as women. But for obvious reasons, it's easier for women to talk about it. The woman is the victim, so her consent makes it okay, changes something that would be a horrible violation into wild sex. The man is the perpetrator, so his consent makes no difference. What man would want to even hint at rape fantasies to his woman? I would think that, even if she were turned on by the idea, she might rather have a man who had to be persuaded than a man who was instantly enthusiastic.

That said, I think that in a trusting relationship, a man should be able to admit to fantasizing about things that would be immoral in real life. I firmly believe that we do not choose what turns us on sexually. For me, my fantasies were there as early as I can remember - they were there before they were sexual. I can't choose to think about, say, having sex in a daisy field, to bring myself to orgasm. It just doesn't work.

All those horrible things that Ram said about women with rape fantasies, I used to say about myself because I fantasized about spanking. For most of my life, I did not accept my sexuality fully, and this frankly pisses me off. I don't want others to live like that. I want everyone to fully accept themselves and find sexual fulfillment.

Of course, not by acting out fantasies that would hurt other people. If you fantasize about something immoral or hurtful, then this must remain a fantasy. But you can act out, or talk about fantasies in a safe context with a willing partner, making married sex hotter and marriage more intimate. What's immoral about that?

Melanie
(writing in haste - hope I made myself clear)

by Melanie on 2004 Mar 17 - 14:32 | login or register to post comments

WHAT! and what?

My first reaction reading the article was “WHAT!” After reading it a second time it was more “what?” WHAT = shock, to what = what is this all about? At times it seems to be about rape fantasy. If so, well OK, but isn't that something to discuss curled up with a lover and plenty of time to explain nuances and detail? In which case isn’t it even a little off topic for Taken In Hand? I know this is the boss's site and I am a very new contributor, so I feel rather impertinent saying that. Sorry the boss, but I hope what I mean will become a bit more clear.

At other times though, it seems to be about more than that. It appears to be about giving up control; almost in the same way as giving the man the right to administer a spanking. This can't be right; it is completely different. The idea of authority and control have often been expressed on this site and we would not be here if we did not broadly go along with that as the basis of a Taken In Hand relationship. However, although authority and control are concepts that obviously overlap they are not the same.

Rape is about control, but definitely not about authority. This, to me, is the issue. To put it crudely, saying to one's woman something like “get your clothes off, I'm going to f*** your brains out” might be a turn on for both, but (unlike an unwanted spanking) forced sex is no way to show authority. That is what I meant by saying if it is fantasy/play it might be off-topic. As an aside, if I've touched on ‘objectification’ so be it: lovers should see each other as sex objects sometimes. (Is that something else I've misunderstood?)

I may well have misunderstood, but the word rape is used through the piece without scare quotes, and the boss seems too accomplished a wordsmith for this to be accidental.

by John O on 2004 Mar 17 - 15:10 | login or register to post comments

To Honeybee

Dear Honeybee,

I am so sorry you suffered such a terrible attack. I too have been raped, and the worst thing about it – worse than the agonising pain of it – was the abject terror that I was going to be killed. I did not write “type of woman” and I regard the idea that there is a “type of woman” as an egregious and disgusting attempt to exculpate real rapists.

Perhaps calling what I am talking about “rape” is a mistake. If the language one uses is such that it obscures one's meaning, one is undoubtedly using the wrong words. However, language is not always easy to get right, and what I was trying to do – and perhaps I failed – was to use a very powerful short-cut way of expressing what could otherwise have taken many sentences and would have been very clumsy. I did consider talking about being TAKEN instead, because that word almost covers it, and perhaps I should have persevered in that effort, but I thought, rightly or wrongly, that if I made it clear upfront that I was not talking about rape in the legal sense, my meaning would be clear.

Once again, Honeybee, I am sorry you found my article offensive, and as one who has experienced real rape by a stranger, I can assure you, I meant what I said about not condoning rape. It was the experience of being raped (and also another attempted rape by another stranger on the street) that propelled me to become more able to defend myself the next time it happened. One thing I had not realised until it happened to me was that it is easy to think you will bravely fight the man off, but when it actually happens, you are so scared that you fail to take action that would save you. If any woman reading this would like further information in this regard, email me.

by the boss on 2004 Mar 17 - 15:46 | login or register to post comments

If she wants it, why wouldn't she consent?

the boss says:

Perhaps calling what I am talking about “rape” is a mistake.
Thank you for admitting that.

the boss says:

but I thought, rightly or wrongly, that if I made it clear upfront that I was not talking about rape in the legal sense, my meaning would be clear.
By using a word that means something else and THEN linking your article to my discussion about reporting to legal authority a real rape and real abuse by a husband?

I think it is fair that your article is read as advocating real rape, and not just "taken" with force. The two words are created for a reason; "rape" necessarily means abuse and absent of consent.

So after all these, I am still a little confused, are you actually advocating that it's a good thing to rape women, against their will, without their consent, within some relationships, such as a long term loving relationship?

You talked about if a woman wants it it's ok, which I find is dangerous. If she wants it why wouldn't she consent? Because she is dishonest? How do you determine if she REALLY wants it? WHO gets to determine if she really wants it? Another author on this site commented that "a woman doesn't always know what she needs," it's this kind of assumption that men are somehow entitled to make decision for woman that sets up the red flag. You don't know who is reading this site; nobody seems have a convicing answer how to objectively determine whether a woman "really wants it," advocating that men can somehow decide for woman whether she wants sex or whether she has consented or whether she needs to consent has no place in a civilized society. In fact, I would say, it's down right criminal and barbaric.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 17 - 16:09 | login or register to post comments

Re: Re: What's next

What I actually found offensive is the fact that he was suggesting that women who had these fantasies were "evil" and "immoral". I am neither of these things (whatever my sexual fantasies may involve!)and I (and I would imagine most women who have these sort of fantasies!) object to being labelled thus. You're right - real rape is evil and disgusting - but that's not what this guy was saying - he was saying it was evil and wrong to have "rape" fantasies.
-------------------------------------------

First of all, let me clearify right up front here, I disagree with this gentleman about the assumption that violent fantasy = evil woman.

My only question is, why do you consider this kind "claim to truth" to be so offensive (a claim to objective truth that woman bearing these kind of fantasies are necessarily evil),
yet you have no objection to equally outrageous claims to "truth" made in this site, such as the claim that woman might fight when raped but then she will eventually turn around to worship the rapist; or that woman actually wants rape?

Why oh why?

-sudolly

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 17 - 16:22 | login or register to post comments

How do we know if she is consenting?

Sudolly writes:

I am still a little confused, are you actually advocating that it's a good thing to rape women, against their will, without their consent, within some relationships, such as a long term loving relationship?
No, no, no, no! As I said right at the beginning of my article, on no account do I advocate or in any way condone rape or abuse of any kind.
You talked about if a woman wants it it's ok, which I find is dangerous. If she wants it why wouldn't she consent, because she is dishonest?
Sudolly, if she says she wants it – if she is asking her man to do it – how can there be any doubt that she is consenting? (Unless we are talking about bizarre and unusual cases in which a woman is being forced by an abusive man to say that she wants it when she doesn't, of course.) What does consenting mean if not wholeheartedly wanting him to do this? What does wholeheartedly wanting him to do this and asking him to do this mean if not that she is consenting?
How do you determine if she REALLY wants it?
You do not second-guess her, you listen to what she tells you she wants. If she really, really wants it, it should not be that difficult for the man to understand that she is indeed consenting.
WHO gets to determine if she really wants it?
She does! I think that consent is absolutely vital. Both parties must be consenting. Both parties must wholeheartedly want it.
Another author on this site commented that "a woman doesn't always know what she needs,"
I have never said such a thing. Of course, there are times when everyone, whoever it is, is mistaken about what he or she needs, but that is absolutely no justification for coercing the person. I agree with you about that, Sudolly. We should not second-guess other people's ideas about what they want and need. I agree totally.
it's this kind of assumption that men are somehow entitled to make decision for woman that sets up the red flag.
I share your concern. But my entire article was about giving a woman what she wholeheartedly wants and has asked for. It was absolutely not about giving her something she does not want and does not consent to.
You don't know who is reading this site, nobody seems have a convicing answer how to objectively determine whether a woman "really wants it,"
I think you have no option but to listen to what she says she wants. I too absolutely hate it when someone decides that they know best for me or that they know what I want better than I do. I would not stay with a man like that.
advocating that men can somehow decide for woman whether she wants sex or whether she has consented or whether she needs to consent has no place in a civilized society. In fact, I would say, it's down right criminal and baberic.
Again, I agree with you.

by the boss on 2004 Mar 17 - 17:49 | login or register to post comments

So, we agree rape is not a gift?

The point is that the boss is using the wrong word to describe her fantasy. I find it hard to believe women actually fantasize about being raped for real. Rape is destructive and immoral (a crime). If a woman wants a man (stranger or not) to just force her to have sex without consent, it is wrong in my opinion. It is disgusting to think if a man wants to force sex on a woman or damage her body. It is just as disgusting for a woman to want this. (A woman can fantasize about seeing a man rape another woman also, that is evil.)

These are evil thoughts to fantasize about being raped. I am not saying the woman is evil, rather I say she is toying with evil thoughts. It’s the truth, rape is evil, period. If a man or woman fantasize about rape, then they are playing into the hands of the devil, same as if a man or woman fantasize about murdering someone. A murderer is not evil, but he has done evil. A woman who fantasizes about rape is thinking of evil and it could lead to destructive behavior. Do you see what I mean?

I believe rape is the wrong word to use to describe what the boss and other women really fantasize about. These women want to be ravished and taken completely in deep, consensual, lustful sex with a partner. Sex that involves feeling the strength of a man overtake her, sweat and lots of friction between bodies. His passionate desire is so intense for her, and she desires it, she knows she is wanted and craves his attention. She may say no, but her body says yes and he senses it. When she sees her man respond to her bodies desire for him too, she craves him even more for the heat of passion. So, that is NOT rape, that is something done between two people who lust for each other. If its done in marriage then its ok and involves love, if its done outside of marriage it is wrong because it doesn’t involve love. (Love is not sex, love is taking responsibility, and caring for another person. Sex is meant to be a perfect union between people who love each other).

I am glad we are beginning to realize that using the word rape to describe a lustful fantasy is not appropriate.

by Ramileous on 2004 Mar 17 - 18:12 | login or register to post comments

to clarify something

Let me clarify that consent between two lovers is communicated. So that even if she says no, she may have communicated in another way she means yes. I don’t think its appropriate for a woman to say no, because it just begs for trouble. However some women like to play as do men and so long as they are in accord with each other (obviously communicated before hand) then consensual sex results.

Playing games without proper communication before hand can lead to trouble. Such as the man grabs her for sex, she says no, he thinks she means yes and takes her. There are so many variables that come into play but the end result is hurt and destruction of lives if communication is not clear.

by Ramileous on 2004 Mar 17 - 18:21 | login or register to post comments

Definitions

While I have not had time to read all the responses, my immediate thought is what the boss describes as "Rape" is really about being "Taken".

Two vastly different concepts in my mind.

"Rape", by it's very definition is non-consensual. And worse, humiliation, degradation and violence is the goal.

To be "Taken" is consensual. It's a strong statement of love and possession. It's a physical way to to say "You are Mine!!!"

I must say, I am disturbed by the attempt to change the very definition of "Rape." Perhaps it wasn't intended, but it reads that way to me.

I think a lot of women who say they are dreaming about rape, are really wanting to be taken by the man they love.

The difference is night and day.

Lori

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 17 - 18:28 | login or register to post comments

Why is rape wrong?

I have a question for Ramileous, Sudolly, and others to ponder and answer or not as they see fit:

Why is rape wrong?
What is it about rape that makes it wrong, if not the fact that it is against the will of the victim? (i.e., non-consensual)

Can you not see that – as I think Melanie said – the very same arguments can be made against domestic discipline involving seriously spanking the woman in a disciplinary fashion rather than just light-hearted erotic spanking?

On the one hand, you seem to think that it is fine to take your woman in hand giving her a serious – painful-even – spanking – which to the casual observer might well appear to be against her will, but in fact, she has told you that this is what she wants (and possibly begged you to do it!) But on the other hand, you seem to be saying that it is evil to take your woman – which to the casual observer might well appear to be against her will, but in fact, she has told you that this is what she wants (and possibly begged you to do it!) Why? To me, these two situations are similar: they might appear non-consensual, but they are both very much consensual and there is no immorality involved.

BTW, you do know that people reading this site write me outraged messages accusing me of condoning wife abuse, don't you? And this is long before I even mentioned ‘rape’. To some of my correspondents, there is no difference between the spanking we talk about here, and downright abuse. To some, the moment a man lays a finger on a woman, he is abusing her – they don't give a stuff about whether or not she wants him to do that: to them, it is abuse and that's that.

Do not mistake the overt form for the substance, whether in taking a woman in hand or in taking her. In both cases, it is an abomination if it is non-consensual, and morally unobjectionable if it is consensual. In my opinion.

by the boss on 2004 Mar 17 - 18:36 | login or register to post comments

Proper communication

Ramileous, I really appreciate your comments. I do like people who say what they think.

Playing games without proper communication before hand can lead to trouble.
And that is why I stressed in my article that it is vital to communicate properly first:
[This is] not something to do cavalierly. Extreme caution is advised. If you are not careful, your gift could be the psychological equivalent of a lethal letter bomb. Do not proceed in haste. Be sure to discuss it thoroughly first, to ensure that, as one woman put it, you are on the same page.
Was that not clear? I do not understand why there is any doubt that I was suggesting proper communication.

by the boss on 2004 Mar 17 - 18:44 | login or register to post comments

Re: Why is rape wrong?

On the one hand, you seem to think that it is fine to take your woman in hand giving her a serious – painful-even – spanking – which to the casual observer might well appear to be against her will, but in fact, she has told you that this is what she wants (and possibly begged you to do it!) But on the other hand, you seem to be saying that it is evil to take your woman – which to the casual observer might well appear to be against her will, but in fact, she has told you that this is what she wants (and possibly begged you to do it!) Why? To me, these two situations are similar: they might appear non-consensual, but they are both very much consensual and there is no immorality involved.

Well said the boss! This is exactly what I was thinking but hadn't got round to saying LOL! There's nothing else for me to add because you've said it all!

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 17 - 19:20 | login or register to post comments

An insult?

Ramileous wrote:

You have to be a very disturbed or misguided individual to want to even role-play rape. What an insult to women who have been actually raped, their lives altered by the brutal act of it.
I know this is not an easy subject, which is why I specifically asked people not to read the article if they might be upset. To say that because some women (myself included, note!) have been raped, this is not a proper subject for discussion, is, in my opinion, a mistake. I specifically stated that I was not talking about any kind of abuse. I do not see where the insult is. What am I missing?
It's also disrespect to the hundreds of thousands of men whose lives have been ruined by women who falsely accuse them of rape.
Why is it an insult to these men? I am baffled. Ramileous, I am not trying to be difficult here: I just don't understand why you think this.
The justice system ruthlessly destroys men who are victims of the malice and revenge of bitter women.
I agree with you. It is absolutely appalling. Wrong. Vile. We agree about this.
Do the same women who fantasize about being raped, fantasize about falsely accusing a man of rape if the fantasy doesn't go quite as she planned or hoped?

No! If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. That is to say (to women): if you ask your man to do this, you had better be prepared to take responsibility in the event that it does not go as you would have wished. A man is not infallible and mistakes can and will happen. If you are not prepared to take responsibility for your own actions in asking him to do that, it would be wrong to ask this of him.

How would it sound if I (a man) said; I fantasize about raping a woman. Pretty disgusting and disturbing, isn't it? Or would you say it's ok for a woman to fantasize of rape but not ok for a man?
Not at all. I am the last person to argue that there is one rule for men and another for women. The very last person. Someone else has already answered this bit so I will not repeat that answer.

I really hope a couple has more dignity and morality to keep the bedroom a place to share fluids in the act of passionate, loving sex; not a place to fantasize about ripping genitals apart and shedding blood in the act of rape.

Ummm... did I say anything in such poor taste as that? I don't think so. And nor did I have anything like that in mind. And nor have any of the women I have spoken to about this. But I do appreciate your comments: it is very helpful criticism, for which I thank you (and everyone else).

If you want to have rough sex, feel free. But don't disrespect real victims by using the term "rape" as your fantasy. You do not fantasize of rape, you want to be dominated and ravished by a lover. These are two different things entirely. Rape is NEVER a gift, being taken by your man willingly is.

OK.
People need to stop saying they fantasize about being raped and admit they just want great sex.
But great sex can also be very gentle, tender, soft, and romantic. Is it not permissible to distinguish between different types of great sex?

by the boss on 2004 Mar 17 - 19:28 | login or register to post comments

Revenge fantasies

Ramileous wrote:

Tell us, do you fantasize about killing or beating men up too?
Only bad men. Er, oops, I jest, I jest! My apologies: I couldn't resist.
I imagine if women think about how great it would be to be raped, they likely dream about how it would be to destroy a man. It gives them a sense of power, thats a big thing today for women, is power over men.
As a strong woman with a commanding presence, I can assure you that what I want is not to have power over a man.

by the boss on 2004 Mar 17 - 19:36 | login or register to post comments

Re: Why is rape wrong

I am against it precisely because it is against the woman's will - it lacks consent.

Reread my comment in a previous post, if a play partner spanked me without prearranged consent, even though I think I deserve a spanking (late report), I will still feel violated.

Even though I find cannibalism repulsive, if it is between consenting and otherwise mentally stable adults, I don't consider it wrong either.

Do we all agree self-determinism is important? Or would we prefer to revert to feudal, historical, dark ages? I am still working towards justifying my subjective and personal conviction that "freedom" (a myth, I concede) and self-determinism is important, but if I read your writings right (or at least half right), I think we at least agree on this.

BTW, as far as I can remember, I never said "rape is *wrong*." I am against promoting the idea, I support the legal persecution of it, I don't want it happen to me ever, I know plenty of women AND children hurt by it in the past, I work with women to learn to defend themselves against it. It is something undesirable to me, and something I would like my society to reach an agreement to not to condone. But if you want an "objective," analytical answer, I will concede, "rape is not inherently wrong," but I say this only because I consider "right" and "wrong" are arbitrary, culturally and historically dependent, and not universalisable. There is no such thing as "absolutely, objectively, universally and inherently wrong action," without a context, it is meaningless to discuss whether an act in itself is wrong. (read my signature!)

But if you want to play it that way, you can even argue that brutally raping a 5 year old little girl is "not wrong." Do we really want to get that philosophical?

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 17 - 19:55 | login or register to post comments

Fueling the fire

the boss, when I logged on today there were something like 54 comments. Just when I expected you would throw up your arms in frustration and put an end to this thread, you insert "Why is rape wrong?" Brilliant.

I conclude that your patience is endless. That you have a vested interest in this topic (you've now made the reason clear). That you adore controversy. That you have a somewhat perverse and, to my taste, very appealing sense of humor. But where do you find the time for this site? I'll bet you never imagined it would grow to such excess and success. I gratefully applaud your initiative.
Claire

by Claire on 2004 Mar 17 - 20:05 | login or register to post comments

Well said Lori

Lori that was well written, thats the point I am trying to make. It seems some people forget what rape really is. I dont think the boss understands she cannot use the word rape to describe what she wants or is talking about for sex, they are two different things and its confusing the subject.

rape (against your will, destructively) and being taken (you want it, consent to it) are two different things entirely.

www.ramileous.com

by Ramileous on 2004 Mar 17 - 20:51 | login or register to post comments

Re: Well said Lori

I second that. And to propagate the confusion of rape with robust (consensual) sexual acts or fantasy of sex with great force throughout the Internet is dangerous.

I have the moral obligation to protest and offer resistance to messages that I perceive to threaten the order in my society, or messages that I perceive to damage the community of power-exchange relatioships. Just because I am a submissive doesn't mean I condone rape; just because I am a submissive does not imply I have given up my civil rights.

What I find really curious is the fact that some users seem to be criticizing us for being critical about the boss's op - somehow they can be critical about our inputs, but we cannot disagree with the boss?

Hmm...

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 17 - 21:11 | login or register to post comments

you miss my point

(((the boss wrote-On the one hand, you seem to think that it is fine to take your woman in hand giving her a serious – painful-even – spanking – which to the casual observer might well appear to be against her will, but in fact, she has told you that this is what she wants (and possibly begged you to do it!) But on the other hand, you seem to be saying that it is evil to take your woman – which to the casual observer might well appear to be against her will, but in fact, she has told you that this is what she wants (and possibly begged you to do it!) Why? To me, these two situations are similar: they might appear non-consensual, but they are both very much consensual and there is no immorality involved.)))

spanking a wife has nothing in common with rape, please do not twist my words.
Spanking is a form of discipline meant to hurt but not damage. Rape is a selfish, careless act of taking from another, often destroying them.

Spanking is done out of love, to correct and discipline.

rape is done to take and destroy, not to give. Rape is usually done out of hatred or lack of respect. Think about all the women in world war two who were raped by soldiers who ravaged the enemy country. That is rape. Stop trying to make the word rape attractive by saying its the same thing as two people consenting to rough sex, ITS NOT THE SAME!!

Do you think a rapist cares whether or not the woman is enjoying herself? He doesnt, he wants something and cares less for her life.

People of today are so confused about what is moral and immoral, right and wrong, its why we have people asking "Is rape really wrong?" . A wife has to let the husband know she approves of him disciplining her through spanking (to avoid confusion). Then when the time comes he will use that method to discipline her. Its consensual though it may not be what she wants at the time she gets spanked. If a couple uses spanking for erotic foreplay that is their business. But they should not take for granted the importance of spanking for the act of authority and discipline.

(((Anonymous wrote--Well said the boss! This is exactly what I was thinking but hadn't got round to saying LOL! There's nothing else for me to add because you've said it all!)))

You guys dont realize that i am trying to draw a distinction between what is responsible and appropriate and what is not. Spanking to discipline is most likely appropriate if done out of love. Rape is never appropriate.

by Ramileous on 2004 Mar 17 - 21:12 | login or register to post comments

((((SUDOLLY WROTE--BTW, as fa

((((SUDOLLY WROTE--BTW, as far as I can remember, I never said "rape is *wrong*." I am against promoting the idea, I support the legal persecution of it, I don't want it happen to me ever, I know plenty of women AND children hurt by it in the past, I work with women to learn to defend themselves against it. It is something undesirable to me, and something I would like my society to reach an agreement to not to condone. But if you want an "objective," analytical answer, I will concede, "rape is not inherently wrong")))

I don’t understand this mentality. How can you say its ok for a society to condemn and prosecute men who rape. Then say that the act of rape is not wrong. I am shaking my head in utter confusion, how can you think this?

This is what our secular, feminist society breeds, Godless thoughts, completely void of truth and morality. People are so deceived and ignorant of what is good and evil, what is right and wrong that they say things like this. Sudolly please think about this, rape is wrong and an act of evil. The sins involved in rape are so terrible, everything about it is wrong. Its not natural, its sinful and destructive, born of evil hatred and selfishness.

I concede, I write based on my deep convictions and understanding of the word God. Jesus Christ has it all figured out. If you are not in Christ, then I understand how you can be so confused on what is right and wrong.

by Ramileous on 2004 Mar 17 - 21:27 | login or register to post comments

Lori's post

Ramileous wrote:

Lori that was well written, thats the point I am trying to make. It seems some people forget what rape really is. I dont think the boss understands she cannot use the word rape to describe what she wants or is talking about for sex, they are two different things and its confusing the subject.

rape (against your will, destructively) and being taken (you want it, consent to it) are two different things entirely.

I have already said that I accept that perhaps I should have persevered in my attempt to use the word “taken” instead of the word “raped”. However, the women who have talked to me about this over the years have used the word “rape”, and somehow, it seemed a bit dishonest to say that they had spoken about being “taken” when the word they used was “raped”. This is not an argument against your contention that there is a problem with using the word “rape”, merely an explanation of why I used it.

If anyone would do me the honour of editing or rewriting my piece in a way that says the same thing without using the word “rape”, I'd be very grateful to receive your suggested revisions. I liked Lori's post too.

by the boss on 2004 Mar 17 - 21:33 | login or register to post comments

Right and wrong

I too was a bit surprised by what appears to be Sudolly's sudden switch to moral relativism. Since everything else she has said seems to be based on the idea that there is such a thing as right and wrong, and that I was morally wrong to write what I wrote, I conclude that I must be misunderstanding her somewhere.

I agree with you on this point, Ramileous: morality is objective, and rape is wrong. It is wrong because it is non-consensual, just as it is wrong to hit your wife without her consent. Consent is vital.

Sometimes, you have to look at the spirit of what is being said and realise that a word is being used a bit metaphorically. That is a part of language. However, as I said, that there is so much misunderstanding suggests that perhaps it was a mistake to use that word metaphorically. Please feel free to email me an edited version, anyone who objects to my use of that word.

by the boss on 2004 Mar 17 - 21:46 | login or register to post comments

Re: Ramileous

And I confess to have zero respect for a genocidal god, for a book that openly discriminates against homosexuals, condone and even rejoice at violence against innocent little children, promotes incest, and so on. Nor do I have much tolerance for any out-dated religious values that conflicts with humanism, mythology and folk lores is not good justification for inhumane treatment of your fellow human.

So what? This is probably the wrong place to debating secular humanism versus christianity.

FYI, I cannot think of any action that hasn't been right in one instance and wrong in another. The words in your shiny book was probably deemed as "right" at some point in history in some culture, but I certainly see it as inappropriate in my society nowadays. I am VERY glad that my society is not run by theocrats.

I support persecution of rapist because you can debate about the philosophy of morality all day and still come up with no answer. No, I don't believe morality is absolute, I don't think there exists any absolute moral code. But we still need a working set of code that reflects our social needs, values, and public opinion to live by.

Theoretical argument about nature of morality is fun and good mental exercise, but in the mean time, I need to live, and conflicts of personal will and interests still need to be resolved. I am all for persecution of many acts that threaten orders within my society.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 17 - 21:49 | login or register to post comments

the boss says: I too was a bit s

the boss says: I too was a bit surprised by what appears to be Sudolly's sudden switch to moral relativism.
------------------------
I have been a commited moral relativist for at least a year, and have been moving toward that directions for at least 8 years. I call that maturation, or growing up. Absolute morality is for little children who do not understand how society operates.

Since everything else she has said seems to be based on the idea that there is such a thing as right and wrong, and that I was morally wrong to write what I wrote,
------------------------
I thought I have made myself clear that my society has no place for promotion of rape, if you insist, it is "wrong" (I prefer to use the word criminal) within this specific context, in my society. It is wrong not because the action of rape is inherently and universally wrong, but because it is not condoned in my society. Do I think it's arbitrary? YES!!! Do I support it? Yes, at least until you can find a better way to organize our society.

I conclude that I must be misunderstanding her somewhere.
------------------------
I think the misunderstanding lies in that you see my protest or criticism of the op as an accusation that you were "wrong." I protest because propagation of these kind of messages affect me and my society, resistance is my way to communicate what I do not consent. I do not consent to condoning of rape in my society, or making light of the word/ crime by saying things like some woman actually wants it. So I protest the statement.

Which is not the same as a universal claim that "rape is inherently, universally, ahistorically wrong."

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 17 - 22:01 | login or register to post comments

Wow

I think the one thing that has been established without a doubt here is that the boss's patience is indeed infinite (as noted above). As I demonstrated on a previous thread, mine is not. I would have given up ages ago. I told my husband about this thread, expressing frustration that so much of the controversy was due to misreading and misunderstanding. He laughed and said, "misunderstanding is a favorite hobby on the internet." Indeed.

There is genuine controversy here as well, and that has been very interesting. I just wish it didn't have to be obscured by so much garbage.

Melanie

by Melanie on 2004 Mar 17 - 22:04 | login or register to post comments

use the word carefully, know what you mean.

the boss,

The friends in your past who said they fantasized about being raped, were most likely mistaken about what rape really stands for, and they used the wrong word to describe what they really want. I cant think of any woman who "wants" to be raped. I can imagine women who want to be taken, lovingly and passionately. The two are different things and thats why your article betrays what you really mean.

I would suggest just rewriting it to draw the distinction between rape and a womans desire to be taken and dominated by a man she loves or wants. Make sure people understand the difference.

Too many people think women fantasize about being raped when that is not correct.

Can you imagine how destructive it would be if we taught our boys growing up that women fantasize about rape, or that rape is not necessarily wrong if the woman decides she liked it. I know you arent a man, but you cannot imagine how destructive that will be to boys, men and the women they will foolishly rape in the future. If you teach such things, we have raised the monsters and victems of the future.

We must speak the truth, teach responsibility to our children and adults; that rape is wrong, and no woman in her right mind wants to be raped. We must not send the wrong messages to the impressionable. That is how the devil creeps into our lives and ruins them.

by Ramileous on 2004 Mar 17 - 22:12 | login or register to post comments

patience

I am sure the garbage melanie speaks of is partly my fault. I am glad the boss has patience to hear everyones opinion. However I have no patience when i see something so wrong as the message of "When rape is a gift" I just cant stand by idle and not try to point out the mistake of using the word rape in context with a womans desire to be taken by a man, metaphorically or not. I guess society has put it in our heads so much that women fantasize of rape, that we just accept thats reality. How sad, I am so sad to see this is what many women think, when so many innocent men sit in jail because a woman falsely accused him of raping her. Sad for the many women who were real victems of rape, who must shudder to think any woman could say she vaguely fantasizes of it.

I can only hope and pray that one day society wakes up and realizes how destructive the act and idea of rape is and it does not belong in the same context as fantasy.

Thanks the boss for bringing up subjects and letting us discuss and learn from them. Its ok to misunderstand and debate, its even better when we stick around and learn from each other.

by Ramileous on 2004 Mar 17 - 22:35 | login or register to post comments

GETTING MY HUSBAND TO RAPE ME WAS A GREAT GIFT!

Thank you to my husband Dan! Although the rape didn't work, because I always want you so much and I couldn't keep fighting, at least you tried and I adore you for it.

Signed, Amber, the apparently sick and demented woman who is sure all her friends and family and co-workers would be very surprised to find out she was so "sick", who asked her husband to sneak in the house and try to rape her to fulfill her long-held fantasy and because he didn't stop first to ask himself "What Would Jesus Do?", or tell me he wasn't quite man enough to try something I wanted so badly, made this apparently judged and found wanting sicko twisted perve woman according to this thread a very happy one indeed.

THANKS DAN!

by Amber on 2004 Mar 18 - 00:48 | login or register to post comments

Thanks Amber & Dan

Thanks Amber & Dan. You guys are GREAT! I'd love this type of experience too but it's not every man that will do it, my husband's not one of them. I'd never leave him but I have pain in my heart that he won't do this for me. If more men knew how most women feel about this they might do what Dan did for Amber. It's an ache inside, a piece missing. I long to share that kind of passion with my husband, instead, we're comfortable and nice and we make love... why is raw unvarnished sex so verboten? When are we going to drop the masks, drop the pretences, and do it how we want?

How can it be wrong to give a woman what she wants with all her being? How can it be an evil act or not consensual? Why are people so quick to judge others?

Thankyou for posting, Amber. You're a braver woman than me. You're right, Amber. Dan's a MAN, a man who's got the balls to give you what you want. What better gift could a man give a woman that what she wants? If you're a sicko perve, Amber, so am I.

Name Withheld

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 18 - 01:16 | login or register to post comments

Yes, let us men do whatever women say.....(sarcasm)

Yes, let society give into all the desires of women, why not thats how feminism began to destroy our world in the first place. You just dont understand that some fantasies are just not appropriate, they are sins and they destroy lives in the long run.

I had a chat with my sister. When she was younger she said she had the same kind of fantasies, now she realizes its all foolish. She just bought into the romance novels that tried to decieve people into believing rape could be a fun, romantic thing.

I can tell you that those romance novels are just as much pornography as internet porn. It is destructive, it gives people inappropriate thoughts and leads to destructive behavior later.

(((Namewithheld wrote---Thankyou for posting, Amber. You're a braver woman than me. You're right, Amber. Dan's a MAN, a man who's got the balls to give you what you want. What better gift could a man give a woman that what she wants? If you're a sicko perve, Amber, so am I))))

There are many men out there who had the balls to give women what they want. Now many of them are behind bars and will never have the touch of a woman for many years. Fantasy of rape is a forbidden fruit, if my girlfriend or wife asks me for it, Ill have the balls to tell her NO!

So predictable that the woman just above would say a MAN should give into his womans demand and do rape roleplay. Too many selfish women think men have to do what they say. Real men decide whats right and wrong, they dont feed into womens freedoms and fantasies like feminist robots. Unfortunately too many men dont know whats right and wrong either. I hope some at least realize by now, if they read this thread, that rape fantasy is wrong.

by Ramileous on 2004 Mar 18 - 02:25 | login or register to post comments

evil feminist? *laughs*

" Too many selfish women think men have to do what they say."

And too many selfish, patriarchal ego maniac "men" believe women somehow OUGHT to submit to men, as if women are inherently second class citizens.
-----------------------------
"Real men decide whats right and wrong, they dont feed into womens freedoms and fantasies like feminist robots."

Real women understands morality is situational and that any claim to KNOW so would be arrogant, close to playing God. They don't feed to the patriarchal oppression regimes and put up with subjugations like doormats.
-----------------------------
"Unfortunately too many men dont know whats right and wrong either."

Why would anybody expect them to? It's not like men are omniscience.
-----------------------------

"I hope some at least realize by now, if they read this thread, that rape fantasy is wrong."

I hope one day you realize, people are allowed to disagree with you, and you are not qualified to judge who is "more right."

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 18 - 02:33 | login or register to post comments

But you're not even married!

Ramileous, I take offense at you calling me selfish or destructive or sinful. You have come onto this site with your Christian agenda. Fine, be Christian. Nobody's stopping you. My brother is a minister. But not everyone is Christian. Not everyone feels like your sister that erotic fiction is evil. And just because not everyone shares your personal religious beliefs does not make us evil or bad for enjoying our fantasies whether it be porn, rape, spanking or what have you.

My husband and I have been very happily married for years. What a married couple does in the privacy of their own bedroom under the eyes of God is their business. And I don't appreciate YOU judging me one bit. God can judge me quite nicely if need be without any help from YOU.

I've noticed that everyone else here gets by without labeling other people as perverted or wrong because of their feelings. Who are you to point your finger at others? You are, in case you haven't noticed, on a site that is often about spanking, after all. Many Christians would call you perverted for even being here.

I resent what you've said about my husband above. There is no one kinder, stronger, more intelligent, more manly and more understanding than my Dan. How dare you say he is wrong in any way. Shame on you.

Amber

by Amber on 2004 Mar 18 - 02:56 | login or register to post comments

Argument?

OK, Ram, you've repeated over and over that taking a woman in this way's wrrong. It'd be good to hear your argument. So far, there hasn't been one. Let's hear it.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 18 - 03:02 | login or register to post comments

fear

It's fear:
fear of being swallowed up by passion
fear of letting go
fear of being human
fear of life.
fear.
That's why
they cry
“don't do this!
it's bad.”
sad.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 18 - 03:24 | login or register to post comments

Rape is biblically condoned

I, too, am curious about your "argument" Ram, hopefully it is beyond "because the holy book say so," because the bible also says there was once enough water to flood the entire world, that women are spare ribs that are made to entertain men, that the entire universe was created 5 days before the first man walked on earth, that God rejoices at bashing little children against rocks, that God punishes adults through killing of their children, and so on.

And if you insist, it appears that the holy book not only condones the use of drug to gang rape, but the man (Lot) was raped by none others but his own two daughters - that is to say, your God condones incestuous gang rape (Genesis 19:30-38). So I don't know why you are getting so high and almighty over others fantasy.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 18 - 03:30 | login or register to post comments

Ok, easy does it folks.

It was not my intention to insult anyone here or make it sound like I am better than anyone else. From the start I merely stated my opinion and gave my reasons. If you take what I say personally, I cannot help that, you shouldnt. I am only a man, i have my convictions and my opinion. I had some pretty foul fantasies as a youth myself, so I know what many of you talk about. Its just my faith has shown me what is wrong about certain ideas we all have through life.

I dont think I will entertain the past few posts. I have said enough to make my case against the fantasy of rape. the boss has been gracious enough to give me that platform, so thats good enough for me.

by Ramileous on 2004 Mar 18 - 03:41 | login or register to post comments

"It was not my intention to i

"It was not my intention to insult anyone here or make it sound like I am better than anyone else. From the start I merely stated my opinion and gave my reasons. If you take what I say personally, I cannot help that, you shouldnt. I am only a man, i have my convictions and my opinion. "
-----------------------------
yes, yes, you expressed your opinion that your theological moral system is the only right system and everything else is rotten, down right immoral, non-sensical, and destructive to the world. I don't take what you say personally, you simply increased my conviction that Christains are self-righteous hypocrites who live to discriminate against people with different beliefs based on their arbitrary and unjustifiable, out-dated morality.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 18 - 04:00 | login or register to post comments

Context

It's all about context. First let me assert, as the boss does, I in no way promote or support rape defined as "force (someone) to have sex against their will." The torture too heinous for a rapist has not been conceived. However, rape also has the synonym of "to ravish." To me, ravishment implies consent. It is the in the context of consent that we are discussing.

Context is everything. I remember a Clint Eastwood movie, "Heartbreak Ridge." In the movie Clint as a Marine charges across a road and sprays the body of an enemy soldier with his machine gun. In the context of combat that act was appropriate. But what if Clint was a police officer? In that context, the act would be heinous. If I meet a lover on the street and sweep her into my arms for a passionate kiss, that is romantic. If I do this to some random woman I meet on the street, I've committed battery, possibly sexual battery. Of course, if my lover doesn't desire my kiss but I insist, I've also committed battery but may get off with a slap in the face. I spank a woman across my knee. If she agrees with me spanking her or at least my right to, I'm the dominant in the relationship. If she does not agree that in the relationship I have the right to spank her, I've committed assault. I embrace my lover, rip her clothes and overcome her protests to ravish her. If she WANTS me to do this, I'm her hero, if she doesn't, I stand a good chance learning how she felt when my cellmate creeps into my bunk. Context is everything. In the case of "rape is a gift," or other male/female interactions, the partner's consent, in this case the woman's, defines the context.

The same act viewed in different contexts has very different meanings. I haven't seen anyone in this thread advocate non-consensual rape but rather promote consensual ravishment. Ravishment to avoid the "hot button" word, rape. But take a photo and the only way to tell which is happening is by the look on the participants faces.

You can't take a snapshot and ever hope to understand the context. Context is in the minds and hearts of the participants. They must all be consenting of their own free will. If there is consent then a man helping a woman fulfill her fantasy is giving her a gift.

by Jeff on 2004 Mar 18 - 04:37 | login or register to post comments

Re: context

The problem is that the word "rape" already has the context partially built into it - vigorous sex with clothes tearing and mutual use of violence is not necessarily rape, rape is NECESSARILY coercion of sex without consent.

Again, I restate, I have no problem with rape fantasy, I have no problem with enactment of rape scanerio or rape-like vigorous sex between consenting partners. But I take offense in making light of the hate-crime rape (sex without consent) by making claims that women want the real thing - not just fantasy, not just enactment, not just a game, but real rape.

But I think this has already been discussed, and the OP (the boss) also agreed that rape is not the best choice of word for what she is describing.

Otherwise, I agree with you. You can't take a snapshot of a moment and decide whether an action is good/bad/right/wrong. A person cries in her wedding and a person cries in a funeral. Same outward physical actions, but joy and grieve are completely different event/ experience.

-sudolly
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the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 18 - 04:49 | login or register to post comments

Consensual Violence

All this talk about rape, forcible “taking”, and spanking boils down to one big thing — violence. Ordinarily, the term “violence” has a bad connotation, but in regard to what we all advocate, it's something that adds spice to the relationship. We all are here simply because we want to enhance a present or future romance or LTR or marriage. I personally have been rather negative on this because of the legal ramifications, about which I have probably written excessively. I have taken this stance simply because I have learned not to trust anyone. I am working to change that.

Another problem seems to be with the word “rape” itself. It's a highly explosive word, and technically, rape isn't about enjoyment, but victimization. But in a loving relationship, it's an additional spice, and in that sense, if the idea appeals to you, it's worth considering. As a man, I would be very cautious about it, and still reticent about actually suggesting it. But if the woman were to suggest it, that would make it easier. The main reason for that attitude is because no matter who twists what meaning, the woman is always viewed as the victim, regardless of the circumstances. If you can see past these admittedly huge barriers, I think it could be a wonderful experience.

KrosRogue

by KrosRogue on 2004 Mar 18 - 06:11 | login or register to post comments

The issue: consent or violence?

Sorry to disagree again, KrosRogue, I can only speak for myself. I have absolutely no qualms about violence, it's a part of my hobby (tournament fighting), lifestyle (martial arts training), and sexuality (spanking). I am not a pacifist and I am not afraid to use violence whenever I judge it to be appropriate, be it playful violence (sport), institutionalized violence (law enforcement), verbal violence (arguments), or physical, real violence (such as in self-defense).

The only reason I take issue with the OP is because of the problem of lack of consent. If you want to use "explosive word" to add spice to your sex life, it's not my business as long as you keep it between you and your partner. But to suggest online that women actually want REAL rape, (not fantasy of rape), and that it is ok to coerce sex on women without their consent and despite their resistance, is problematic.

For example, if you drug a woman then have sex with her without her consent, no explicit violence has been imposed on her, but it's still rape.

It boils down to consent, not violence.

-sudolly
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the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 18 - 06:26 | login or register to post comments

RE: Yes, let us men do whatever women say.....(sarcasm)

Yes, Ramileous, let us do what God says and end up a society of repressed, frustrated individuals. Sorry, I know this is not a forum for religious debate so I will keep this brief. Ramileous, in my opinion the majority (please note I don't say ALL!), of religious people are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites. These are people who preach the word of the Holy Spook but yet are committing adultery. These are people that religiously go to church every Sunday and spout the same sort of nonsense that you do AND then go and use women by repeatedly marrying them, getting them pregnant and then abandoning them in favour of someone else!! These are not "made up" situations - they happened - in the first case it was my aunt and uncle (my uncle was the pastor of the church and it was HE who committed adultery) and in the second case it was my cousin who was using all these poor women so dreadfully (incidently he is the son of the aforementioned spokesperson for god).

Do you know what I think Ramileous? I think that if there were less (religous) repression of people's feelings and desires there would be far less "unsavoury" behaviour (ie adultery, abandonment etc) and probably far less sexual crime.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 18 - 09:54 | login or register to post comments

RE: Ok, easy does it folks

It's interesting to note that after literally paragraphs of your preaching we suddenly have I dont think I will entertain the past few posts

No, I bet you won't, Ramileous. When confronted with Sudolly's questions about your God and with Amber's anger over your shoddy comments regarding her clearly wonderful husband, it's suddenly "erm... bye then...."

I've posted a couple of times on this thread and I just want to finish by saying that, like Amber, I have a lovely, wonderful husband who I can happily share my fantasies with – in fact it's required of me ;) – ‘rape’ included. He has (on a couple of occasions now) carried out ‘rape’ on me and I it was the most totally, mind blowing, out of this world sex I have EVER had. Nuff said! LOL.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 18 - 10:08 | login or register to post comments

re: Consensual Violence

As KrosRogue says, and Sudolly agrees though she doesn't seem to see that she's saying the same thing, it looks like the issue is violence in both the case of punishment spanking and 'raping', but what matters is CONSENT. Like the boss said, if it's consensual, it's OK, if it's not, it's a heinous crime.

If you think the boss should have used a different word, why not do us all a favor and take up her generous offer of editing her post. LOL! If you can't think of a way to say it that doesn't use that word, maybe you need to examine your premises and ask yourself if you might, just might, be wrong.

It's nice to see a couple of guys are brave enough to say it could be a wonderful experience. I was beginning to think you're all a bunch of pussies. KIDDING! Time to chill out, guys. We've done this thread to death. Get over it. Nobody's advocating anything nonconsensual.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 18 - 11:06 | login or register to post comments

Irony

I find it ironic when a very vocal and opinionated person claims to be a moral relativist. I also find it ironic when a person the same age as my daughter makes a proclamation about how much more mature her philosophical views are than mine.

JK

by LadyK on 2004 Mar 18 - 12:33 | login or register to post comments

Re: Ramileous

I can understand people being offended by Ramileous referring to women with rape fantasies as evil and immoral. On the other hand, I cannot consider it a fault in a man to be so disgusted at the idea of rape that he sounds off with a knee-jerk reaction. When he calmed down, he was able to say that it is rape that he considers evil and immoral, not the women. I think this better represents his actual views.

I must admit to a certain bias towards Ramileous because he reminds me of my husband. (Although my husband tends to be more tactful. ) My husband is also deeply religious and one of the things I love about him is the way he takes moral leadership in our family. This was one of the strands that led to us to a "Taken in Hand" relationship. Even when we were dating and engaged, my husband established high moral standards for us. He was the one who made the decision that we would wait until marriage for sex. He was the one who insisted that we would have a church wedding rather than elope because it had important religious significance. Over the years, my respect for my husband in this area has grown and grown. I have come to think of him as a wise and good person who is my first choice for advice in moral and spiritual matters. When I look at Ramileous, I see a man who has the potential to be this kind of husband and make another woman as happy as my husband makes me.

JK

by LadyK on 2004 Mar 18 - 12:56 | login or register to post comments

I stand my ground on how I feel about this issue

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting to note that after literally paragraphs of your preaching we suddenly have 'I don’t think I will entertain the past few posts'

Its not preaching, its my opinion, and I have argued my case about using the term “rape” in context with foolish fantasies.

Anonymous wrote:When confronted with Sudolly's questions about your God and with Amber's anger over your shoddy comments regarding her clearly wonderful husband, it's suddenly "erm... bye then...."

This thread is NOT about fielding questions about my faith, It is to discuss the issue of rape and fantasy. I wont be dragged into personal debate over my faith with suddoly .It is impossible to convince an angry person, especially one so hostile to Christians
I didnt say “erm bye then” Its obvious some of you are so against what I have said, and my reasoning, that you want to argue for the sake of anger, not to solve an issue, I wont be dragged into that. Amber felt free to mock men who don’t pander to womens whims, I turned the tables to make a point.

We all have fantasies, and we may have freedoms to exercise them, but that does not make them right nor acceptable to act out. I speak from experience, I have had inappropriate desires and fantasies before and through conviction I have come to understand that the good things in life are not always the right things in life

www.ramileous.com

by Ramileous on 2004 Mar 18 - 12:59 | login or register to post comments

Inappropriate desires and fantasies?

"We all have fantasies, and we may have freedoms to exercise them, but that does not make them right nor acceptable to act out. I speak from experience, I have had inappropriate desires and fantasies before and through conviction I have come to understand that the good things in life are not always the right things in life"

I congratulate you on improving yourself as indicated. May I ask what kind of inappropriate desires and fantasies you are talking about? Maybe that would help others understand your strength of feeling on this matter?

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Mar 18 - 13:15 | login or register to post comments

Re: Ramileous

When I spoke of "garbage," I was not referring to your posts. You understood what the boss meant, and expressed your disapproval of this kind of fantasy. I disagree with you rather strongly, but that's beside the point. You took the time to read and understand her before responding. What's really annoying me is the people saying that the boss is advocating nonconsensual rape, and then going on and on about how wrong it is, as if they only bothered to look at her subject line before responding. She's been very busy trying to straighten out people who went off half-cocked, and this gets in the way of a real discussion of her idea.

Melanie

by Melanie on 2004 Mar 18 - 13:27 | login or register to post comments

I find it ironic when a very

I find it ironic when a very vocal and opinionated person claims to be a moral relativist. I also find it ironic when a person the same age as my daughter makes a proclamation about how much more mature her philosophical views are than mine.
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Just because I don't believe there is *a* universalizable "right answer" on big ground issue, doesn't mean I am willing to put up with out-dated religious claims. I don't need to know "the real origin of man, earth, and universe" to know women aren't spare ribs and santa isn't real and there was no world wide flood. So get use to it, relativist comes in all shapes and sizes, and not all of us are spineless people willing to put up with religious BS.

-sudolly
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the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 18 - 14:00 | login or register to post comments

Re: Ram's excuse for running away

"It is impossible to convince an angry person, especially one so hostile to Christians."

And the same can be said about angry, unreasonable christians hostile toward secular humanist feminist :-) Why do you expect me to put up with your bloody world view after you attacked mine is beyond me.

It's not my habit to passively accept aggression of any kind, if you don't want my hostility, you probably shouldn't initiate it.

-sudolly
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the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

by sudolly on 2004 Mar 18 - 14:06 | login or register to post comments

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