To the boss:

I think you are correct in that the relationships that we support are loving, respectful and (quite frankly) exiting. Yes, what is forbidden is instantly more desirable, and it makes it more fun to (ahem) get hold of...

However, society defines the norms of behavior based on the perceptions of the majority - on that basis we *are* abnormal, as we are outside the current accepted norms for society. In addition, on-line groups such as these re-enforce our attitudes and provide a strengthening of belief in ourselves. Without such a group as this where we can talk openly (even if under pseudonyms) about what interests us, many people might lack the reassurance to try this choice of lifestyle. Thus the group provides a virtual society where our abnormal lifestyles become normal (similar to the Amish society, but in a virtual sense). The risk is therefore that we will sometimes take our lifestyle and the support we get here, and not undestand why other people do not agree with us.

For what it is worth, I believe that "society" is the group who is missing out, and that being "abnormal" (in this context) is something to be proud about - has anyone taken a look at what passes for normality these days? Despite that, it still behooves us to not go trumpeting our relationship styles to others - a virtual society is not (yet) a real society, and it is in the real society, with family and friends, that we have to live.

I also suspect that society disapproves of us BECAUSE we do not conform. Lack of conformity means that we do not comply with the rules that society dictates, and as such we are a rogue element that (in a sociological sense) theatens society and the status quo. Interestingly though, societies can (and do) evolve and change constantly - look at the changing attitudes to sex outside marriage over the past 400 years in Western culture. Better communications often leads to more rapid change, a feature of the last 20 years or so.... There is also an interesting argument that our relationships reflect those of previous generations, and that is *us* who have remained "true" to what we believe, whilst society has moved away from us - thus what was once the norm is now abnormal.

All in all - I think this lifestyle is fun, should be tried by more people, but I do not think that the majority (culturally and societetally conditioned as they are) would approve.

Just my tuppence worth!

Random

My wife and I are open about our relationship and I see no reason not to be. If other people don't like it, it's none of their business. My wife is proud to be my wife and the mother of my children, she doesn't feel any need to pretend to be something she isn't. It must be difficult living your life in the closet. How do you do it? To us, this is natural and normal, and if other don't like it, too bad.

My husband and I are known to be in a traditional relationship, everybody we know and care for witnessed my vow to obey him and I think that most of them have a pretty good idea that we take that vow very seriously. That he protects me is clear, that he shows traditional chivalry to me is also obvious, that I defer to his decisions is public, that I respect him, do as I'm told etc etc are all things that are so much a part of the way we conduct our lives that it would be impossible to say that our lifestyle is anything other than it is which is public. I think most of our circle must have noticed the marked change in the way that Mark and I conduct ourselves as a couple since our marriage.

What is not in the general public arena, is some of the ways in which we implement the structure of our relationship, that is to say the fact that it incorporates spanking. Some people are certainly aware of that though, Mark has spanked me in front of others and I know that his twin brother and he have spoken about this aspect of our relationship, partly because his brother started to have feelings about this entering into his own marriage of late....one of those twin things, when Mark puts me over his knee, his brother starts thinking its time to take his own wife in hand!

I don't discuss this part of my life at work, not because I feel it is something to be ashamed of (except of course I am ashamed on occaisions of the behaviour I have displayed which caused me to receive a spanking in the first place),

I don't discuss my sex life either, or my bowel movements or any number of other things I consider to be seperate and private from that, my professional life.

I don't tend to discuss with girlfriends that I have received a spanking, mainly because once a punishment is over, then Mark and I tend to lay the whole matter to rest and raking it over with anybody else gets us nowhere. That and being ashamed of myself for having misbehaved as I said above. My two or three closest girlfriends are aware that this goes on though and one of them I know has the same sort of relationship with her husband. Perhaps it's because my friends and I are pretty similar that there is no shock or disapproval, or perhaps this is just a lot more common than any of us would think.

Issie

Dear WB,

To comment on this would be a stab in the dark: there is very little to go on here. The question is: why has she lost virtually all sexual interest?

There could be a million different reasons, and how to proceed depends on what the reason is. Establish what the reason is, if you can. If you have absolutely no idea, see if you can find any clues in past events, or simply ask her. She may not know, but you might get some information anyway.

No matter what the reason is, one thing that is sure to kill any desire she may feel is if she feels pressured to have sex. If you are as desperate as you say (and I deeply sympathise!) you might inadvertently have compounded the problem by putting pressure on her to do her duty as a wife. In that case, you might find this article helpful.

Note that if you are thinking of going elsewhere, the chances are, your wife can tell, and if she is like most women, nothing is certain to put her off faster. Who wouldn't react against that implicit threat?

If you think that she is just not a very sexual person, you will be interacting with her in a way that is likely to push her into appearing that way. Medical problems aside, everyone is a sexual person, and those who appear uninterested are merely not excited by the person they are with or the way they and their spouse are interacting.

My suggestion, FWIW, is that if you are with a good woman whom you love and would like to be with (especially if your sex life with her was better) immediately drop this potentially highly destructive line of thought about going elsewhere. You will solve nothing while thinking along those lines. Instead, put all your creativity and effort into solving the problem and making things good with your wife. Ambivalence will destroy your marriage if you don't take yourself in hand and focus on your wife and your relationship with your wife.

You have not given enough information for anyone to be able to tell whether or not your wife would be open to a Taken In Hand relationship. How have you approached her about this? Do you have reason to think that the idea leaves her cold? What doesn't leave her cold? What are her deepest, most powerful sexual fantasies? If you don't know what drives her, find out!

In general, for Taken In Hand women, inviting them to be submissive is unlikely to work. You would need to draw it out of her. And you would need to do that consensually, not through an implict threat to find someone else.

Sorry to be so little help, but I can't begin to guess why she is not interested, or what might interest her. You are in a much better position to tell. I wish you luck.

Kindly meant, Daisy, but I think you mistake her meaning. By 'living in the closet' there was no implication of cowardice. In fact I would be inclined to say taken in hand folk are brave, defying current society for their own happiness, and their partners. But while every relationship, in its way, is intimate to the partners, a taken in hand one, in particular, is usally not a dinner table topic with the current standards. In fact, it really is downright frowned upon.

No one is calling you a coward, but I doubt (though I could be wrong) that you would let anyone see how your relationship works. Not because you are a coward, or even because you really don't need to (why should you have to, its your relationship) but because it would be admitting yourself into a dubbed 'taboo' situation. And nobody, particulary people who don't understand and take it upon themselves to judge, have no need to know what goes in your private relationship. Which is fine.

I think the meaning of 'in the closet' was more refering to the fact that not only are these our own private relationships, but they could cause a bit of a stir if they were widely known. Nobody is calling you a coward. It was just a choice of words, not intending to be offensive to anyone. Perhaps it could be said differently.

I don't personally think that bickering is necessarily a sign that a couple are unhappy. In fact, couples who seem very devoted to each other can still break up. years ago, when my husband and I were going through a very rocky period in our relationship, there were three couples in particular who all seemed very devoted to each other, and who I used to envy "If only we couold be like that" I thought to myself wistfully, watching one of these couples walking around hand-in-hand. Within a few years, all three of those couples had broken up, while my husband and I were getting on better than we had ever done before. You simply can't tell by looking at a couple whether they are happy or not.

As for bitching, well I don't know about that, but being able to discuss your partner's idiosyncracies is one of the main benefits of having friends. If one of my friends has a complaint about her partner, then I assume she knows what she is talking about, she knows him better than I do after all. Doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't love him, just that she needs to vent now and again. I do the same. Just because I have agreed to try and do things around the house my husband wants, doesn't mean it doesn't get on my nerves from time to time. Because I can have a laugh with my best friend about the fact that he goes ballistic if he finds the kitchen in a mess helps to reduce the tension.

I know that my husband sometimes talks to his friends about me, a year or so ago he mentioned to me that a colleague of his had told him that his wife rushes around doing last-minute tidying up before he gets home from a long trip (whether she gets spanked if the tidying isn't done, I don't know). Clearly they had found this to be something they had in common. More recently, I had a sulking fit when he told me he was going to be back two days later than expected from an unusually long trip he'd made. Another colleague of his had had his wife react in a similar fashion when he was delayed, and my husband sent him an email telling him about it, and got the reply "Weather it out, mate, and hide all the sharp objects when you get home". He needs to talk to friends sometimes as well.

As for chivalrous gestures, well I've never really rated them highly, which is just as well as I'd wait a long time before my husband did those things for me. He has many admirable qualities, but chivalry isn't one of them.

I really do think the extent to which 'society' disapproves of Taken In Hand relationships is wildly exaggerated on this site. All this stuff about being brave and fearless and defying society etc, come on! Until quite recently male-led relationships were the norm (at least nominally) in Western society, and still are the norm in most of the world. Apart from the kinky stuff about spanking, rape etc, is anyone really going to be terribly shocked that your husband is the boss in your marriage? I don't think so. Taken In Hand relationships are mildly unconventional, but nobody gets fired from their job, sent to prison, beaten up or murdered for being in a Taken In Hand marriage.

Louise

I don't personally know any women who whine on about their needs, but discussing their partner's foibles is something every women I've ever known does from time to time. Having a laugh with your friends about the eccentricites of the men in your lives is one of the pleasures of friendships, and I would be unwilling to do without it. One has to confide in someone, respect for your husband is all very well, but you can't bottle things up all the time, you've got to talk to someone now and again. Well, I have to, anyway.

I understand that chivalrous gestures are important to a lot of women, but they don't mean anything to me, and it's just as well, since i've never known any men who went in for them. The only person I ever knew who went in for opening doors for me etc was a woman. My husband mostly finds it quite difficult to be barely civil to most people, chivalrous gestures would be too much to expect of him!

Louise

Well, I can't offhand recall if I've ever talked about my husband on a bus. Maybe I might have mentioned something about him to my friend who I used to go shopping with sometimes when I lived in our old home. We did used to go into town sometimes on the bus. I can't really remember, it's almost two years now since we moved down here. I suppose mostly when if I mention anything about my husband to a friend it's either in her own home or mine. if I did ever mention anything about him in public then there wouldn't really be much chance of anyone who knew him overhearing. And I can't imagine that if they did they'd be that bothered at learning that he goes ballistic if I leave the Nesquik out after making the children a drink, if they know him at all well they probably already know he's like that anyway.

The girl who used to make chivalrous gestures to me was a working in an office where I also worked for a time (I tended not to stay in jobs for very long, I got bored very easily). She was very attractive, and all the men in the office fancied her, they were furious that she liked me rather than them. We both played up to this, she was ostentatious in her attentions to me in the office, pulling out my chair when I sat down at my desk, helping me on with my coat when we left work etc, both of us enjoyed winding them up. She used to offer me cigarettes which I never refused, although I didn't smoke, partly because she smoked Black Sobranies with gold filters, which I thought were incredibly chic, and partly so that she could go through the ritual of cupping my hand in hers and gazing into my eyes while she lit my cigarette (you could sometimes hear an audible grinding of teeth from the men when she did that).

Louise

Well, I don't know how fashionable lesbianism was when I knew this girl thirty years ago, but her passion for me infuriated the men in that office! It was a pity she fancied me really, because I liked her a lot, we had a lot in common, but the sex thing got in the way. You can't really be friends with someone when you know that what they want from you is a lot more than friendship. I did go to bed with her once, because she wanted it so much, but it didn't do anything for me.

Leaving the Nesquik out is always a major source of irritation to my husband, though it isn't very difficult to annoy him. Occasionally, if we have been going through a quiet period, I get the urge to do something provocative on purpose. The other day when I was washing the kitchen floor for instance I came on one of those red wax Babybel coatings stuck to the floor. Now that is one of many things that are anathema to him, the children are always dropping them on the floor or the carpet, and it drives him mad. I hesitated for a moment, knowing that if I left it there I would be in a lot of trouble when he came home (there's no chance that he wouldn't notice it), and contemplating pleasurably what the consequences would be, but I stifled the impulse and cleaned it up. So his wrath was averted on that occasion. Yesterday afternoon, however, I got soundly thrashed by him for arguing with him about where the washing powder should be kept. There's always something!

Louise

Babybels are the bane of my life, He Who Must Be Obeyed is always threatening to ban them from the house altogether. He has permanently banned chewing gum and bubble gum, but they sneak in from time to time, which can lead to great unpleasantness. One occasion that remains vividly in my mind is the time he got up from the sofa and found a patch of sticky pink gum on his clean black trousers.

I suppose it's just as well I don't smoke just as if I did I'd probably be permanently in trouble for dropping ash on the carpet and fag ends everywhere, let alone in ashtrays!

No, I'm not on a bus at the moment, but if I were I'd probably be in trouble for leaving my mobile phone at home, there's always something!

Louise