There is a long and fascinating discussion about When rape is a gift on a feminist blog. You can find it here. Most of the commentators seem to take the view that Taken In Hand, and this article in particular, reinforce patriarchy and harm women. They do not approve of people choosing Taken In Hand relationships.

But what is the difference between forbidding the choice to be Taken In Hand, and forbidding the choice not to be Taken In Hand? What good will it do anyone to replace one set of prescriptions and proscriptions with another? As I have always said, I no more want to dictate to others what their choices should be for their own lives, than I want them to dictate to me what mine should be. And if the day were to come when Taken In Hand were in danger of becoming compulsory, I'd be fighting to the death to prevent that appalling outcome. It would be an abomination if it were compulsory.

The view that says that Taken In Hand should not exist, and that it is harmful, rests on an incredibly pessimistic view of people. I do not personally think of other people as being weak, impressionable sheep. I think that they are perfectly capable of reading this site critically and making up their own minds. They don't in fact need to be protected from themselves and prevented from making their own choices lest they come to harm. I think people are more autonomous and critical than some of the posters on the above-linked site would have us believe.

I have always had the fantasy of being kidnapped by Indians and raped by all of them. Also, with Pirates... Being taken out to sea and being raped by all. What does this make me? I mean this is coming from someone who as only had 1 partner in 18 years and now going through a divorce.... I have turned a 180 since..... It's thrilling and scary at the same time.

Your site is merely fodder for all those who seek to blame the victim, to charge a woman with "crying rape," by leading others to believe that this "rape = gift" is a normal, healthy fantasy.

It is not.

Either one consents to sex, or one does not. Your "rape" is actually a role-playing fantasy for which you and your partner have set boundaries in advance. Your use of the word "rape" does a disservice to all women and men who have suffered from sexual violence.

I do not want my sons or daughters, or your sons or daughters, to learn from you and other people with similar practices, that women secretly desire to be raped, that when women say "no" they really mean "yes," that brutalization is desirable. It is not. In using the word "rape" to describe your sexual encounter with your husband, your words become false, full of hate and poison.

Advocate all you like for your particular fetish, talk all you want about it with like-minded people, but do not even begin to imply that women want to be raped. When it is rape, women do not want it. When women do not want it, it is rape. There is enough violence against women on this planet without your website adding to it.

-LK

As I read this article I too thought wouldn't this whole thing be much simpler with a safeword that way ther is no fear of doing anything wrong. With a safeword she can scream shout and object as much as she likes and both of you will still know what that other wants after all the main reason for safe words is so people can object without killing the mood.

As for the issue of condoms and spreading disease I think for a couple to get into things of this intensity they would be rather involved which hopefully means they have both been tested before and are clean, and when it comes to pregnancy there are many other options (the pill, ecp,...and other worst case senario things.) a sensible couple would work all this out first

Thank God for you, Jeff. This would seem to be the only sane comment here.

The real problem in the original post was the use of the word 'rape'. As I went through the comments I was thinking 'What are they all going on about?'. The OP means 'ravishment'. A time when one partner in a relationship wants to make love without necessarily seeking the partner's consent at the time of the need and act.

As we are already in a relationship whereby both partners have set out what they require and need from the relationship, surely they are allowed to negotiate what form of sexual activities they prefer?

Now if this means that the couple like it if the male 'jumps' his female partner when he wishes to and thereby also fulfills her fantasies, how can this be wrong?

I know that I am being simplistic here, but I cannot see where the problem lies if two consenting adults take part in an act which they have both consented to and which, for them, is highly erotic.

I am simply jealous! :)) Anyone for swinging from the chandelier?

Rokesmith

Well, I know that not all women fantasise about being raped because I am a woman and I don't. Rape leaves me cold and does nothing for me whatsoever. I frankly don't understand at all why it's something any woman would want, but then a lot of women feel the same way about spanking for instance, which is something I want very much. there's no accounting for taste.

And I am extremely doubtful whether what animals do in general can be called 'rape'. When I have occasionally seen animals mating the female has generally seemed to be compliant, I haven't seen any signs of them struggling or resisting. They don't always look very interested in what's going on, but they seem to be resigned to it rather than resistant.

The fact that you almost ended up in prison due to a vengeful woman's acccusations should, it seems, have suggested to you that not all women are enthusiasts for 'rape'. Not all women want to 'experience nature' if that includes rape, and I am one of them.

Louise

98% of the time, true rape is about sex. NOT violence. At some point in the last 30 years or so, a number of feminists got it into their heads that rapists have somehow all gotten together into some sort of patriarchal conspiracy against women. And it's just not true.

Rapists rape because they want to have sex with women who aren't likely to say 'yes.' Tell me this: does the pickpocket take your wallet because he wants you to have to spend days on the phone cancelling your credit cards and replacing your drivers license? No, of course not. He takes your wallet because he wants your money. It's not that he wants to create the hassle for you - he just doesn't care enough about it to not steal the wallet in the first place.

So it is with the rapist. 98% of the time, the rapist just wants the sex. Violence is a tool to get it from the woman, just as thievery is the pickpocket's tool for getting what he wants. Sure, there are a few truly psychotic, sadistic rapists out there who honestly want to brutalize women for it's own sake. But those guys are the exception, the lone weirdos pouncing on women beside jogging trails. The vast majority of rapes occur under social circumstances. The women are not beaten or injured any more than is necessary for the rapist to get what he wants.

Look at what any rapist has to say for himself after he has been caught and proven guilty. They almost all say that they raped the woman because they think that "she was asking for it" and that they wanted to have sex with her. Not because they have some love for violence. I've known several people who ended up being guilty of date rape. None of them were really violent people. They were just guys who couldn't take 'no' for an answer.

Please don't mistake any of this as an excuse for 'true rape.' I am simply trying to establish the truth about it in the face of myths created by women who didn't know the first thing about men.

I'm slightly confused as to what point you are trying to make here. Rpaists aren't really violent, they just want sex, and so that makes it okay for them to rape women in order to get it? Forcing sex on a woman IS an act of violence and extreme brutality, the fact that a man is desperate for sex does not make it all right for him to rape a woman. Most sane men would, I imagine, agree with this.

Louise

I don't think he was saying that rape is not a violent act - nonconsensual rape, that is. I think what he was saying was that it has been the CW for a long time that rape has NOTHING to do with sex and EVERYTHING to do with violence, particularly violence and/or misogyny. I have always disagreed with the CW on this subject, by the way, and I agree with this poster.

the boss,

I ran into your webpage and was surprised to find out that I am not the only woman with fantasies of being "taken" against my will. I am so proud that someone actually had the guts to say it out loud. Thank you for that.

To Ramelious.. a quote from your paper...Women naturally want babies and a husband who is strong enough to care for her, women don’t want to be presidents, soldiers, big businessmen or fathers so why raise them to be?

Who says women don't want to be presidents or big businessmen or soldiers? I doubt they could genetically be fathers.. but otherwise.. I believe your early protests to this thread were off base with your other beliefs. How can you be "morally" opposed to rape/rape fantasies, and believe in gender equality - while at the same time, believe that "no woman could want to be president, businessman, etc." Just curious. And BTW, not all women want babies.

I know what you mean. I tell my fiance often I want him to take what is his. I absolutely love it when I go to bed before him and he wakes me up with sex because I did not take care of him before I went to sleep. When he does this it really amkes me feel like I BELONG to him. I feel so satisfied that I was able to saisfy him.

ok folks...we may wind up on some swampy mucky murky ground here, and I'm remaining anonymous, because I'm still lurking, but I've just GOT to talk about this one.

I'm going to do my best to keep this neutral and non-offensive, but I might step on someone's toes anyway.

I think something that's being overlooked here is *instinct*
We ARE animals. Period. And we are pack animals. We form packs or family groups. Now, there have been some intresting studies done about this very thing in biology, and it appears to be based upon several factors.

One- The female chooses the male. Biologically, a female wants a strong male to pass along good gentics with. in most cases, this has to do with the male making displays, bribing the female with food, etc. This works when the male to female size ratio is roughly equal. Not necessarily so with humans. The female is of a smaller size, and so that dictates that biologically it become more competitive for the male to mate her in such a way. In humans, instead of the other primates, the upright walk has formed a *barrier* by the shifting of the sexual organs, to simple *distract and pounce* sex, seen often with chimps, gorillas, etc.

two- Females test males for fitness to mate. in a situation like what we have, where the female is of a smaller size, and has her body basically shielded and built in such a way as to make more common forms of sex impossible (anyone honestly tried standing up? it's damn difficult) she can choose to be more selective, and that brings us to point 3.

three- dominant and not so dominant males. Instinctually, being on top of the pack means that your genes will be the ones passed along (which is really all our biology cares about...state of mind is just an inconvenece to biology's point of view.) Females want a dominant male (whatever their selection criteria is)to pass on genes and males want to be the dominant one, so they can pass on genes as well.

this adds up to a rather ugly mess in which the male either has to bribe the female, or to force her into mating.

Bribery carries very little biological impetus, as it could be a mere windfall of food, etc. So nature selects for force, making the male larger, stronger, etc, to assure mating.

This doesn't make Rape *right*, however, it does give at least a biological background for the fantasies and drives for rough or violent sex.

Now, before any of you decide to totally blast me out of the water, I'm a counselor, a survivor, (yes, I'm male, and believe me, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, except that if you say that something happened to you, you're taken less seriously than women) and a person who's dated and had relationships with survivors and nonsurvivors alike.

Too the boss: I had to do a lot of soulsearching and a lot of talking with my previous partners, and I finally concluded pretty much the same thing you did with your article.

From a discussion I had about this very article in a matter of fact.

If I understand this properly, you're saying you have the desire, at least from time to time, to be so owned, to be subdued, and to be taken forcefully and fully, whether you fight or not, by someone that you know at your core won't cause lasting harm to you, but not by some random stranger, or jealous ex, or psychopath that could give no care about your wellbeing. You want it to be part of the relationship's experince, and part of the power exchange, not a victimization.

I was in a relationship with a girl who enjoyed rape fantasies (to whom, like you, it had actually happened to) and who wanted to engage in them with me. We talked it over, seriously talked it over, and came to an agreement about it where it became *blanket consent* for me to have her, on my terms, whenever I wanted her. She was fine with it, and she stated such in a notarized letter (for mutual legal protection, in case some random 3rd party decided it was their business to rescue this "poor battered girl, who's been brainwashed so bad she thinks she enjoys this") which she presented to me as a gift.

One of our friends saw it and asked *Why? isn't that just inviting abuse?* to which she responded *If I thought he'd victimize me, I wouldn't be here, If he were that determined, he's had many an opportunity that he hasn't taken, and one would have to ask why, AND I happen to enjoy it, even if I do fight, and claw, and scream *NO* and bite...there's a primal part of me that KNOWS that I want this, like this, and that no matter how rough the sex is, if it doesn't have that edge to it, it's just not fulfilling. Honestly, he's so gentle, that if I didn't give him consent, he wouldn't and if I ever wanted out, I could tell him so, and he'd shred the letter on the spot. Honestly, I love him more because he's willing to give me what I want and need than if he weren't. That's not to say I want to be attacked in the club again, but him- it's different.*

I don't understand it so well, myself, but I've figured out that yes, we want a form of that primal coupling, yes it can be mistaken for nonconsensual rape, and yes, it follows the pattern of *no. no. No. NO. DAMMIT RIGHT NOW!*

The point that causes a lot of problem is the place where it goes from being a limit, to NOT. In other words...the line of consent.

I don't like *no* in a scene or fantasy, because for me, that's a sacrosanct hard limit. I have found it best summed up by a really sweet girl who learned how to speak male.

*Sweetie...not all the time when I say *no* do I mean no...a lot of times it means *not yet*. *If I say no, and then slug you...then it means no....sometimes.*

Confusing. yeah. me too.

Slippery ugly legal ground? Possibly. But it's kind of like in *screw the roses, send me the thorns* (paraphrased) *when one person is strapped down naked, and the other is standing over with a torture implement, that is NOT the time to have a serious mismatch of expectations.*

Now for something no other guy here has apparently decided to chime in over.

I have fantasies too.

I won't go into the specific details, but yeah. I've got them.

Just as a woman wouldn't go out to try and fulfill a fantasy of being raped by a stranger, I wouldn't play this out with just anyone. It's something that would come with a lot of talk, a lot of trust, and a lot of work. For me, and the girls that I've gone over this with, this is the understanding we came to - We're adults. We can choose to do this, and it's the *why* not the *what* that's important.

I've taken it upon myself to break into a hosue and beat a man senseless for beating his wife, but I've stood idly by and watched a friend lay stripes down his lady's back with a cane- why?

The first guy was trying to cause her longlasting harm, the second, she'd agreed to. She hadn't given consent at the time, but she told him that if she ever misbehaved to a point he thought it was needed, then he could do so. Blanket consent.

But also the male's motivations in the situations as well needs to come into it. First guy was beating her for a WARM BEER!. My friend was caning his lady for having a severe moment and throwing away her meds.

In terms of raw tissue damage- the first guy was a complete wuss, had only split her lip. The second guy left 6 ugly stripes down her back.

in terms of psychological damage- the first guy likely caused loads, making her tentative and insecure. (she escaped him that day, though, went to a shelter and is doing pretty well now, I'm told) the second guy, when he took her down..she turned around, and hugged him and cried, thanking him for giving her a reminder that she was loved.

it's a power, and it's a responsibility. WHAT we do with It and WHY we do it are the improtant things to remember...it's all about choice.

I've seen hugs and kisses used as psychological torture, and I've seen people grow free to love each other more with some activites that turn even MY strong stomach (and I studied torture methods throughout the ages as a basis for some very nasty roleplaying villians.) and my stomach has dealt with a lot.

For one party, it requires a sense of timing...knowing when to care rather than to attack, knowing that you can trust her as much as she trusts you to put this kind of power in your hands.

For the other, it requires knowing yourself to know that you'd be comfortable with the outcome, even if it doesn't turn out the exact way you want.

Huh...sounds a lot like a spontaneous scene without safeword to me.

Take care of yourselves and your partners.

Are you being serious when you say that most women have experienced sexual abuse by the time they are 21? Surely not? I'm 50, and I've never experienced sexual abuse in my life, and out of all the women I have known in my life, I have known only 2 who have spoken about being sexually abused when young. Of course, the others might all just be keeping quiet about it, but somehow I doubt it. Surely sexual abuse isn't that common? That suggests that most men are monsters, and I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Louise

RIGHT ON!!!

No offense; had a rather articulate response at hand but lacking the energy to utilize it--so I'll say this:

'Tomato' 'tahmato', ne? If naysayers like you keep referring to a certain word as possessing only negative connotations, that's all it might be. Isn't 'progression' the realization of establishing positive roles and shattering ages old negative stereotypes? Otherwise we wedge ourselves in a place to continue thinking sex in any form is bad and there's only one true, proper religion and way of living.

You're a bit like me, I think. You're almost too intelligent for your own good, but sometimes that lends itself to a little self-enlightenment. In this case, I think you're arguing a moot, bullshit, and ultimately degrading to women (as oppossed to the rallying cry you have that women enjoying anything other than vanilla sex is inherently evil) point.

Lighten up. :)

This thread is the most outrageously tumultuous one on this entire site, and that mainly because of the judgmental attitude of those who choose not to exert the minimal effort required to even attempt to understand what really goes on here. The men are cruel and the women are fearfully abused, or so goes the claim.

I freely admit there is much that goes on here that I don't understand, both in what makes others happy and even in what makes me happy. But just because someone else, you, or I have limited or even no understanding about that which arouses pleasure and contentment in another person or OURSELVES does NOT mean it is necessarily wrong or unhealthy.

There shouldn't have to be any defense for private pleasures between consenting adults, but time and time again it comes because folk like you refuse to believe that this is all consensual AND it brings happiness and HEALTHY contentment to those involved.

You say this is unhealthy. For you it may well be, because you may not enjoy it. But, what is truly unhealthy for the individuals involved is to deny us the means by which our relationships are enriched and fulfilled, which I am sure you would had you the power to do so.

KrosRogue

I did have a woman I was dating ask me to fight her and then 'take' her.

I generally am not in that frame of mind. I want to be wanted so I can enjoy the sexual act. To be honest, I didn't know if I would be able to get an erection, since I don't do that type of thing.

But, I was game enough to try. We both got undressed, and got on the bed. She dared me to make a move, so I grabbed her. She fought back. We wrestled and she resisted enough to stimulate her and me.

I was surprised that I was quite aroused. Since I have never done such a thing, where was this coming from? I can only guess that this is something very deeply seated in our unconscious mind, perhaps quite primitive.

After we were done, she simply said 'Well, I guess I deserved that'. I'm not sure what she meant, I suppose it was the idea that she was being pushed into doing something 'dirty'.

I've not done that since, but I do remember that night quite well. I don't think I will ever forget it.

The fantasy of rape seems to be instilled in men and women, it seems. I have one in which I attack and rape an unsuspecting woman who truly fears for her life, not knowing what to expect. After the encounter, she finds that she enjoyed the experience and becomes my love slave.

Is this possible? I suppose it is. Would I risk it? Hell, no! She may enjoy it, but most likely she wouldn't, and that would ruin both her life and mine.

Mike Starre

I'm a man reading this site for the first time. Down with whining, moaning, immature woman bitching about objectification.

[Comment moved here: Objectification - we are all objects, whether we like it or not - Editor]

I'd like to disagree with the blanket assumption that "rape is never an erotic experience"

For me it was.

I admit that I'm bothered by the constant insistence that real rape is not a sexual act, but only about violence. For me it was sexual. I'm fairly certain it was sexual for him as well.

I don't buy this, it's only about violence and not about sex. If rape is not about sex at all, how does the man get hard to perpetrate rape? Think about that one grasshopper. I understand there are some nonsexual adrenaline rush situations where a man can get hard, but what I don't understand is why choose “sex” as your particular brand of violence if you don't want to have sex? You can just as effectively terrorize a woman physically and violently without it. It's just a pat phrase that no one really thinks about. Sure it's about violence, but it's not only about it in most cases.

For me It wasn't a stranger. It was someone I was dating, I said no and I meant no. We weren't playing a sex game, and he knew it. I begged him to stop and really tried to get away, by the end I begged him not to stop. It was one of the most intense orgasms of my life and one of the most erotic experiences of my life.

I really tried to work up the "proper victim response" over it. I tried to be upset about it after the fact. But I never felt like a victim over it. He and I had been in a relationship. He'd already seen me naked, and we continued to be in a relationship. It just didn't register on the trauma scale. Eventually I gave up trying to get negatively worked up about it, and the memory was used as a masturbatory fantasy for months. (please understand, I never thought what he did was "morally right" or “legally okay” but it didn't make any difference to my experience of it.)

In my current relationship there is blanket consent, and not just for spanking or other punishment, but for anything. Sex included. So if I say no and mean it, my husband will still have sex with me if he wants it. Those times have been the deepest most fulfilling orgasms. So I think "rape" in this article was the proper word to use.

Because while some are playing a scene or acting out a fantasy, for others, the experience goes deeper and is more real. And it's not an issue of wanting to be raped by just any random person, but by a specific person. Really and truly having no way to escape the situation, but being forced to submit to the experience.

I know this is troubling for many, but I don't see why it should be. After all, consensual nonconsent for spanking is disturbing for many, yet its very common on this site.

I would obviously be traumatized by stranger rape, or even rape by some acquaintance. But with someone I've already had some type of sexual activity with or sex with, it's just hard for me to work up the anguish that I know socially I'm supposed to if it's not brutally violent.

Yes, it's a violation, but it's not always particularly brutal for everyone. And in cases where it isn't, depending on the circumstances and the woman, it's not always the same level of trauma. And in a few, like me, there is no feeling of distress, except maybe distress over not being able to work up the proper level of shame and trauma. And then anger/distress at having my experience classified in ways that it wasn't, just because I'm not in the majority of experiences.

As long as I'm a good girl and get properly freaked out, society smiles on me and pats me on the head and pities me. I don't want to be pitied. While I understand that for some women what happened to me might be traumatic if it happened to them, even with someone they were in an ongoing relationship with, to me it wasn't, and isn't.

For ME what is traumatizing about the act of rape are the following things: Fear of being killed or brutally beaten or tortured, Fear of an STD or pregnancy, shame over being seen naked by someone I don't know, having an intimate nonconsensual act take place with someone I don't know and haven't previously had any intimate acts with before consensually (or these things with someone who is just an acquaintance).

If none of those conditions exist, it doesn't register.

If all this makes me some sort of deviant, for having a different scale by which I gage my own personal trauma, so be it.

For the record also, in case there is misunderstanding. I had rape fantasies way before any actual violation. My fantasies started out rape fantasies and I was never in any way sexually abused by anyone at that time. It's important for me to clarify that because I know that some desperately want to make me a victim that I'm not as a way to explain my “obvious deviance.”

I'm also somewhat confused by people's definitions of rape. Some people define rape as nonconsensual sex. Others seem desperate to define it as random, brutal, having nothing to do with actual sex, not the stuff of wet dreams, and “never met someone who was truly raped who saw it as a positive experience” As if somehow nonconsent isn't really nonconsent if the victim isn't in need of years of therapy afterward.

To me this is like saying that what happened to me must have been legally and morally okay since I wasn't huddled in a corner afterward. Someone claimed that the moment you want it, it is not rape. (I'm not sure I completely agree with this. If someone will have sex with you whether you want it or not and for some reason you happen to want it, how is it not rape in substance if not in form?)

So then are we in agreement that before I wanted it, that it was? Does my experience suddenly become legally or morally okay just because I got lucky and got off?

Louise, you might not be aware of it, but it's actually common for women to experience physical sexual pleasure at the hands of their rapist.

A woman cannot help how her body responds. For many women this is a source of a lot of shame and trauma, especially when an insensitive person who doesn't know anything about rape comes along and assumes that she wasn't really raped and she really must have wanted it. Guess who causes the majority of the shame and trauma? It's the people who say she must react to the violation in a certain way, or ELSE it was OKAY and she wasn't really raped.

She said that she said no, and she meant no, and she struggled and fought and BEGGED him not to but he did anyway. HOW IS THAT NOT RAPE?

It doesn't matter if by the END of it he'd turned her body against her, and It doesn't matter that she wasn't completely destroyed by it because of being in the relationship she was in with him. To say what he did was okay and not rape, is like it's own form of rape.

I had a similar experience happen to me with my first husband. And the most raped I ever felt was when someone tried to tell me I wasn't because I had a very similar response. No real emotional trauma over it, AFTER THE FACT.

I think it's emotionally damaging to a woman to try to make her have a certain type of response to an event because it's seen as the "appropriate" one. And to then punish her by denying the wrongness of the act committed against her when she doesn't.

If there was an ignore feature I would put you on it, but skimming by and reading this I couldn't just not reply.

In this situation, the problem seems to be compounded by the fact that it was someone she was in a relationship with (something else I can identify with), if I'm understanding the post correctly it wasn't until after the fact she wasn't upset. It doesn't mean she didn't start out upset, or truly scared, or didn't MEAN no. To say that she must have meant yes, if she isn't behaving or feeling the way that you think she's "supposed" to feel, is deeply disturbing to me.

She also stated that her only real distress after the fact was over not having the standard response of trauma to it, and that having it DISMISSED as "not rape" just like you just did made her feel like someone was excusing it as morally or legally okay.

I can identify with that. Are you going to tell me I wasn't violated now too? Come on, tell me. TELL ME just because I didn't have to go to the hospital over it, tell me it wasn't rape because my body said yes. When my mouth and my mind said NO!

Tell me it wasn't rape because I loved him and he wasn't a stranger. Tell me that I must have really wanted it, and just been confused about NO because I wasn't distressed after it. Tell me it's not a crime and it was okay because somehow my mind protected me from the trauma.

God, like that's not the excuse every rapist gives. "But, your honor, her body said yes."

The belief that it's not rape if there is an orgasm is so uninformed, I can't believe you can dress yourself unassisted.

Also, don't bring up previous discussions with me about "hunting the guy down" Like the woman who posted, I wasn't attacked by a RANDOM STRANGER. And I can identify with not being able to in any way harm someone you love.

You should really let posts sit for about five minutes before you post them.

I'm crying right now. And maybe it's hormones, but I think it goes a bit deeper. I'm not crying because of what my first husband did to me. I'm crying because somehow you think you have the right to pronounce it as OKAY because I didn't react appropriately.

I'm more hurt by what you just said, than the ACTUAL violation I experienced. Because you just made a pronouncement that it was okay. It wasn't "really" nonconsent if I changed my mind by the end. Wow. I just...wow.

Most rapists would love to have you as their defense attorney.

I never thought I'd have to break out the dictionary for RAPE, but apparently so:

1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

Let me ask you...is there ANYTHING mentioned about the mental state the woman HAS to be in all the way to the end of the act and afterward? No? Then don't reply to things you don't know about and don't deny what someone says happened to them cause it doesn't fit your little mold.

I didn't actually say it was okay. I am simply trying to understand what it is that makes a woman feel sexually aroused by an experience if it is genuinely hateful to her. It's confusing, if you've never been in that situation yourself.

Rape is a very difficult crime to try anyway, because it's generally just the man's word against the woman's, and if she got genuine pleasure out of it in some way then that seems to me to make it hopelessly confusing. How do you ever sort out what is rape and what isn't if you don't actually dislike the experience in the end? I mean, if the man claims that he thought she really wanted it, and if she did find herself getting turned on by it, then doesn't that make it all very complicated?

if a woman is violated against her will, that's straightforward enough, but if she herself has feelings of pleasure about it in some way, then how do you make sense out if it? I always thought that rape was when a woman was forced to have sex against her will, and that she would therefore not be enjoying it. But it all seems to be a lot more complicated than that.

I wasn't denying anything, I was just trying to understand it. If it isn't a hateful experience, then what does make it rape? It is very difficult to understand if you have not been in that situation.

And no rapist could have me as an attorney, because I'm not one. I'm just trying to understand what it is all about. Rape is a great deal more complicated than I ever thought it was. How would a jury in such a case sort out what had happened? I'm just wondering.

Louise

Louise,

Fair enough. I stayed away from the site for a few days because I wasn't sure what your reply would be to that big ol moment of confession of mine (I never thought I would share something so personal), and I honestly wasn't sure if I wanted to see it.

I know that for some women if they have been with a man before and later he rapes her, he knows what her body responds to, so it's a matter of physically recreating those sensations. Not to be crude, but if he ties her up, he can draw this out as long as it takes. Some men who rape WANT to turn a woman's body against her.

Some, it doesn't matter or they want to physically hurt her.

Some women, like me, are wired a little bit differently, and so, in the circumstance I was in with my first husband, my body is already set to respond a certain way to a certain type of activity.

I don't fully understand myself the reasons it sometimes happens with stranger rape. But I'm told it does happen. Some women are just very orgasmic and they can't really help if their body responds. Also, I believe I read somewhere that the fear response in some people triggers very similar physical reactions as arousal, both are an adrenaline rush.

One's mind and will can want one thing, while their body responds a totally different way. I can understand the "you can't rape the willing" line of thinking, but the problem comes in when the body responds differently from the mind and will. It's why I believe a man can be raped by a woman.

However the guy is incapacitated, he can be tied up and physically made to respond. But he might not actually want to have sex with the woman. One might argue that it can't have possibly been that great of a hardship for him. Maybe, maybe not. But people are not general purpose toys for just anyone else to play with.

I can understand where you're coming from. In my case I didn't prosecute. But there was no question that from a legal standpoint what he did to me was against my will and a violation.

As for having sexual pleasure and how that would be handled in court, it's a pretty well known fact that some women DO experience sexual pleasure, their body is turned against them. So from a legal standpoint, it would be tried, not on the basis of how the woman felt by the end of the act, but on the basis that she said no and meant it.

After all, what is in question with rape is consent, not whether or not a woman has an orgasm. (How often do women consent to sex and then not have an orgasm? lol.)

This type of rape where a woman's body responds can be even more upsetting to some women. However, for some, like myself, it being in a marriage with someone I loved (though I really shouldn't have loved him, but it's hard to just turn it off sometimes) I wasn't completely traumatized by the event, though this isn't to say I never felt violated.

There were times in my first marriage where my body was turned against me and no meant no, but he changed it by the end, but I still considered it rape. There were other times when I was afraid to say no. There were a lot of very confusing and complicated things that happened.

There were times when I felt violated afterwards and times when I didn't. There were times I felt violated when I didn't say no (although that could have to do with a fear of saying no.)

I'm sorry I got so irate with you, it just really hit a nerve for me and hurt, but I can appreciate your frame of reference and why you responded in the way that you did initially.

I understand now that when you made that comment you weren't trying to be hurtful or deny anyone's experience. I very much appreciate your tone in your comment and not getting upset with me.

I said some pretty not nice things to you in the last post out of anger, frustration and hurt, and it means a lot that you didn't respond in kind. And I'm sorry for the rude things I said to you.

Zoe

you enjoy the fantasy of being raped yet when i meet women an get involved an mention maybe having a lil "rough sex" i get looked at as a cad!! lol but as far as your quote of "the battle of bodies" that sums up what i want to accomplish i just want to overpower my "victim" an have hot nasty sex

I love this site and naturally there is content within that is not for me, I accept this. I tend to find the site refreshingly honest and informative so I am saddened by the abuse of the word and meaning of the word rape. On a site and in an article that claims not to condone abuse in any form.

As a woman who endured a 4 hour abusive session including vaginal and anal rape at knifepoint aged 12 I find it more bewildering how a victim of this heinous and illegal crime can abuse this word. Rape with consent is not possible.

Freedom

What a beautiful word. Thank you for reminding me of it. I feel it should be used more often and explains my desires exactly. I adore it ( and him ) when my husband ravishes me!

A very important and significant point has been made. The point of the original post was not in defending the descriptions of women's rape fantacies but in discussing such desires that exist and men receive requests from partners to provide rough (rapish) sex.

This is a difficult concept for some and possibly shocking to receive (as I can atest to receiving said request from a partner). It seems to be a healthy extension of female sexuality but can be mis-interpreted by the male partner. The first time I had received said request I was shocked (a little hurt) that she wanted psuedo-violent psuedo-antonamous (sp?) sex (considering the idea is to imagine being raped, but not actually being raped, so she is not thinking of her partner but of a miscellaneous other).

Again, partner communication is so important in a situation like this.

There are two very distinct aspects of my girl that make for one hell of a paradox.

First, when she was younger, she was raped. Ultimately, it has lead to some significant issues for her insofar as insecurity and thinking of herself as somehow tainted. Naturally, as I care very deeply for her, I reassure her that this is not the case and that she is a wonderful woman who is worth far more than she can ever imagine.

Then, the flip side. In bed, she loves to be dominated. The term "rape" has never been broached, and hopefully it never will because I am personally uncomfortable with it, but the extent of male dominance/her own submission she craves is essentially what the boss describes in this article. She is happiest for me to use her for my own pleasure and has been explicit in telling me this.

This paradox is quite puzzling to me. Despite being the victim of a violent and traumatic rape, she still desires a significant level of helplessness.

I've alwasy had rape fantasies too. I love the feeling and experience of being forced and overpowered, made to succumb to the deepest urges of a strong and powerful male.

Amber is right. "Rape" is a bad word for this want. As she wrote, rape is violence, not sex. Now, I have no idea how to differentiate in words between that violence and the fantasy of being taken, but there IS a difference.

It may have to do with the man, because as I wrote in the first paragraph here, I want to be "made to succumb to the deepest urges of a STRONG and POWERFUL male"; NOT a man who violates a woman because he lacks power. Lacking power is a characteristic of a rapist. And a real man that can take you in hand is not lacking in power. That may be the difference.

I also find pleasure in rape. I have been raped several times, and never felt so used. It was a great feeling. I like the surprise and force,and the pain, to teach me. I love to fill my man's needs , and i am a breeder so i want hiis seed.

Thank you for writing this.

I particularly like, and always have liked, rape fantasies. Until I heard, from research and anecdotal evidence, that these were in fact very common, I felt quite uncomfortable with them. It would be very difficult to try to explain to an eager partner what your fantasies were when they begged you to ask for information. Nevertheless, once I opened up my fantasies, the result would be that it shocked a prospective suitor to the point of retreat!!! But now I've met my match - it's easier to explain, it's consensual and it's fun. And no, I've never been abused as a child, etc. And yes, if it happened for real by a stranger with truly violent and aggressive intentions, it WOULD scare me like it would for any woman. I like to fantasise that my match is a highwayman after more than my jewellery. I told him about this with extremely pink cheeks (hence the moniker!) and he seemed quite amused. Indeed, on occasions he has stood and delivered, worn a mask and pointed our son's toy gun at me. He's an alpha male and gets enjoyment out of it, plus he knows that I enjoy it and he gets pleasure from his empathy. I respond by gratitude, a sense of inner peace and contentment afterwards and our relationship is hot! Now, where's the harm in that?