Which comes first? Dominance or submission?

Some readers may have noticed that I rarely write about dominance and submission. Instead, I might say that a couple knows what needs to be done or equivalent wording.

The reason that I do not write about dominance and submission is that I am coming from a different point of view from some writers on Taken In Hand in that I write about families and children – which are central to the purpose of men and women forming unions.

Thus, to me, the question which comes first – dominance (control) or submission – becomes a chicken and egg argument. It does not much matter which comes first. Women tend to be drawn to men whom they know will meeting their needs by being a good provider and father to her children. (That is, in fact, the definition offered for middle dominance women – who comprise most of the female population.)

Conversely, those who come from the high dominance perspective can be (not necessarily are) a challenge. In return for their respect, these women expect a man to go one better. Consequently, a man might have to prove his superior dominance to such a woman before she will submit to him.

On the other hand – as described in articles such as Our new beginning, How I became submissive, and In praise of Fascinating Womanhood – more conventional women might become submissive in order to achieve (for them, at least) a higher end.

To complete the triangle, a low dominance woman may need to be drawn out of her shell so that her fear becomes respect. She might need to be spanked because she is loved and, for all of her initial terror, needs to know that she is important to the man she married. Regardless of dominance level, most women understand a man laying a firm hand on their backside much better than his walking out and leaving her. Furthermore, regardless of his faults, women come to appreciate the committed man as she becomes older.

The most likely scenario for a typical couple is that there are two parallel tracks on which successful relationships run – not unlike a railroad. When the relationship bends one way or the other – as in a curve – the weight of the relationship may shift more heavily on one rail or the other. Even on a straight run, the train (relationship) may sway more to one rail or the other and back again in a rocking motion.

At the same time, it must be realized that women can and do test men as part of their innate survival mechanism. Women do give implicit permissions on which the expect men to act. In time, if men fail to act, women will despise them.

Simultaneously, most women – as well as the relationship they are in – would benefit from being taken in hand physically (soundly spanked) on occasion. Otherwise, women acquire the ‘mark of the beast’ in that they acquire metaphorical horns and become combative.

In time, neglected women can become evil – doing great damage to their husbands, their children, their families, and themselves. Some become politically correct fanatics!

When all is said and done, whether submission or dominance comes first probably depends on the type of relationship as well as the individuals in it. Some women can be quite subservient. Others require a looser rein.

To try to impose a singular, absolutist style on all would be sheer folly. It is its own brand of political correctness.

Noone

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The paradox of the master and the queen
Offering an olive branch
Why Taken In Hand isn't actually unfair
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2004 Oct 23 - 20:18 | login or register to post comments | latest article | previous article | next article |

Which comes first?

Thank you, Noone! I finally have a label for what kind of woman I am! I am "middle dominant". I do not frighten men off; I just winnow out the ones who won't meet my needs.

Again, thank you. It's a relief.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Oct 24 - 05:15 | login or register to post comments

Most women?

I have no way of knowing how common the desire to be spanked is among women, because it's not something I've ever discussed with women I know in real life, nor could I ever imagine doing so. But I can't assume that because it's something I want is therefore something that most women want.

Most women probably do want men who are good providers and fathers, if they can get them, but that's not necessarily the same thing as wanting a man who is dominant. I have known men who were good providers and father without being the slightest bit dominant, my own father was one.

Certainly I know from personal experience that if you're a woman who wants to be spanked then not getting it can make you frustrated and irritable, but becoming evil? I think that's a little bit of an exaggeration.

by Louise C on 2004 Oct 24 - 06:36 | login or register to post comments

High dominance woman who doesn't want to be taken in hand

Being a high dominance woman I have noted that my most outstanding characteristic is that I do not fit the mold. I don't want or need a man more dominant than myself. I don't give a hoot what society thinks of me. And so on. I like being spanked for fun. Punishment isn't on the radar.

Surely there are other people who don't go around disrespecting a partner just because he doesn't whup her ass on a regular basis. You can't assume that what you believe is necessary in your marriage applies to all, even in gradations.

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Oct 24 - 20:02 | login or register to post comments

D/d or S/s

This very question is one that is discussed repeatedly in my home. And quite frankly I agree that each relationship takes it's own course and that is how the dynamics are laid. In my case I suppose by the labels provided I am considered (by you) a High Dominance woman. Yet when thinking of my two sister In-in Laws, one who needs control to validate her life, and her bitch, oops, her greatest admirer, the other, the idea of any dominance is preposterous. Their relationships are determined by how high my brothers can jump. They both consider themselves 'feminists of the highest order'. Yet even in their dominance, my brothers' wellbeing is second only to their pleasures.

We do not see eye to eye at all, yet I am the happiest, most well balanced and have the most harmony, and that's what's only visible.
Is it because I was able to embrace the submission that Gary was able to spot then seduce out of me?

But there it is in our house. The dominant had to be available so the submissive could spread her invisible wings. Was I submissive before? Not even in my fantasies, well except I submitted to spankings.

I am fascinated with this debate though, although it comes to an understanding of individuality....Blush

by Blush on 2004 Oct 24 - 23:36 | login or register to post comments

Seducing submission

Hey Blush, isn't it great how our husbands were able to, as you so well put it, 'seduce' the submission out of us?

It has led to a wonderful relationship for me, to say the very least.

by Jayda on 2004 Oct 27 - 07:42 | login or register to post comments

Reaping rewards..

Jayda, seduction can come in many forms, and for us seducing the submission out is that gentle firm nudge that many of us need to acknowledge and then to embrace.

If a heavy hand is used to force an issue, then not only is the end result forced, but then emotional byproducts have to be dealt with as a result.

So it's a fight for each and every step. Doesn't sound appealing to me at all.

In my life, Gary gently made remarks that allowed me to see my own personality.

And that very gentleness has allowed me to trust him and then to give him that very same submission that I didn't even know I had.

But who reaps the rewards? Is that the same question as what comes first, the submission or the dominance?

But to agree with you Jayda, in complete fulfillment, the wonderful relationship speaks more volume than anything else can.......Blush

by Blush on 2004 Oct 27 - 15:27 | login or register to post comments

Loss of respect

I was in a relationship for thirty years....it failed when my ex walked out and decided to be 20 something instead of in his late 40s. I took a major role in the marriage and much of the responsibility-particularly financial fell to me...not a role I sought or enjoyed. In the end I lost respect for him and I do know I changed towards him......I don't think I became evil but I can identify with what Noone says....... If I had been held and he had taken a firmer role I don't think the marriage would have ended with the acrimony it did.....Just a thought......

by a Taken In Hand reader on 2004 Oct 29 - 11:26 | login or register to post comments

Loss of respect

On the other hand he might have walked out anyway. If by deciding to be in his early twenties you mean, as I suspect you do, running around with young girls etc, it might have been a result of him just wanting to do that rather than any failure on your part. We're back again to the thing about it not being a panacea for all ills. Not everything that goes wrong in a marriage is inevitably the woman's fault. He might have been capable of adopting a Taken In Hand life, or he might not.

by Louise C on 2004 Oct 29 - 12:08 | login or register to post comments

Dominance must come first

I could relate to Noone's comment:

it must be realized that women can and do test men as part of their innate survival mechanism. Women do give implicit permissions on which the expect men to act. In time, if men fail to act, women will despise them
I found myself committing more and more outrageous acts to gain his notice. For the most part, it wasn't a conscious act. For example, I would go to the local pub alone. He would allow this. I accepted a drink from another man. That was ok too. I came home late and he would say nothing. I started staying out later and later and eventually was out until 4:30am...and he accepted this.

I felt unloved, uncared for and ultimately lost respect for him. I realized that I was trying desperately to get his attention. Shouting loudly through my actions how much I craved him to stand up and say no, he wouldn't allow it any longer. I cannot believe he has allowed me to say some of the things I have said to him. I don't say this with pride either.

I wish I could feel ashamed of myself for it, but I don't. At times, I feel a quiet sort of disgust that he would be so accepting of such unacceptable behavior, but mostly I am saddened by it all. And even more sure that he isn't strong enough to lead me. IMO, the man has to dominate before the woman can submit.

Blue Sunset
BlueSunsetGirl@hotmail.com

by BlueSunset on 2004 Nov 29 - 21:28 | login or register to post comments

You need to tell him what you want

Most men are not going to take you in hand unless they know for sure that is what you want, a lot of women would react very negatively to any sort of forceful behaviour on the part of a man; most sensible men won't risk trying anything of that nature unless the know you would welcome it.

A sensible man does not just take it for granted that he has a woman's consent to spank her or whatever, you need to let him know. Presumably your husband thinks you're going out boozing with your friends because you enjoy it, it's a not unreasonable assumption. If you want him to place limits on you, he needs to know that. Talk to him about what you want, he's not a mind reader.

by Louise C on 2004 Nov 30 - 06:48 | login or register to post comments

Reading minds

The catch to me "boozing with my friends" is that I was going alone. Not alone as in without him, but alone as in with no one else. He knew that too. I have long understood the necessity of letting him know how I feel and not expecting him to read my mind. Over the past years, I have approached him every way I could about him being the 'man of the house'. He isn't interested. You say:

If you want him to place limits on you, he needs to know that. Normal men do not just start dominating women out of the blue.
I wonder if some of the men who have posted here would agree. If you are a dominant man, would I not have felt it from the beginning? Would it be permissible for me to continue escalating my unacceptable behavior and remain unchecked by you? I can imagine a "normal man" not taking a woman in hand or administering a spanking out of the blue, but not telling her he is hurt by her actions or would prefer that she not do such and such just speaks so loudly to me of his lack of dominance.

I also know mind reading isn't possible, but I do think it is possible to know someone well enough to be able to 'read' their body language and non-verbal clues accurately. I interpret his lack of protest, either verbally or in body language to be a definite declaration of his lack of interest in me and a sure indicator of his levels of natural male dominance. I cannot submit to him if he does not require it. It isn't as if he complained and whined about me going out alone...there was no comment about it all.

Blue Sunset
BlueSunsetGirl@hotmail.com

by BlueSunset on 2004 Nov 30 - 19:21 | login or register to post comments

Dominance and cultural conditioning

BlueSunset wrote:

If you are a dominant man, would I not have felt it from the beginning? Would it be permissible for me to continue escalating my unacceptable behavior and remain unchecked by you?

Actually, yes, depending on his upbringing. If he has been brought up to think that both partners should always be equal in a relationship, if he thinks that what you do makes you happy, if he loves you enough that he wouldn't want to hurt you by possibly disrupting your happiness, then it's perfectly possible for him to completely bury his dominant urges. I've been there with my husband.

You also say:

Over the past years, I have approached him every way I could about him being the 'man of the house'. He isn't interested.
Have you actually directly raised the issue with him? Told him you'd like him to be dominant, that you'd like him to stand up to you if he has issues with your behaviour? Again, it may be that he thinks by not commenting he's making you happy. An awful lot of men are very bad at reading between the lines and picking up on "subtle" hints (subtle in quotes because, from my own experience, what I think of as bleeding obvious, my husband (and other men) don't even notice).

It'd also be worth talking to him to find out why he's not interested - you may find out that he's actually got some big misconceptions stuck in his head about what it would all mean.

--

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Hamlet, somewhere.

by ConfusedOfHomeCounties on 2004 Nov 30 - 22:22 | login or register to post comments

Curtural conditioning or lack of interest

I have talked very directly to him about taking control. Being spanked was never brought up because honestly, I never thought of it. I never considered what I wanted was to be disciplined. For several years I have wanted him to be more vocal and dominant about everything and anything. To be the final voice with the children, to take over the finances, to be the man in charge. I feel he has no opinion and defers to me not out of concern for my happiness, but because it is easier for him to not be responsible. He is not a dominant personality. To be in charge means he would have to pay attention and accept the awesome responsibility of leading. It's more than he wants.

I am a deeply intense woman, with a strong will, active and intelligent mind, and a strong desire and need to experience life and all emotion to the fullest. I need a man who will not be overwhelmed with my fierceness, with the depth or intensity of my strength, my personality, my desires, or my needs. I need a man who is in tune with me, who doesn't need to always be directed in the ways of me because he is paying close enough attention that he already knows, or already suspects what I need. I need a man strong enough to prevent me from wresting away control. Unfortunately, it's not him.

The level of trust needed to make a taken in hand relationship work simply does not exist in our relationship. He does not have my best interest at heart. Nor is he willing to fully embrace and assume the responsibility of the leadership role.

I appreciate your comments. I don't mean to sound so negative. I feel I am being realistic though, not negative. I think there would be lots of room to make this work IF he were already a dominant man, or even a suppressed dominant man. But the dominance doesn't live within him. I have been in control for so long not because he allows it, but because he can't prevent it. I can't relinquish control to a man who doesn't want it, or isn't strong enough to take it.

Blue Sunset
BlueSunsetGirl@hotmail.com

by BlueSunset on 2004 Dec 1 - 15:20 | login or register to post comments

No interest?

If that's how the situation really is, you have every reason to sound negative. It's one thing not being dominant, it's another entirely to be utterly passive in relationship.

I'd suggest yelling at him in the middle of a row to DO something and actually take control for once, but I'm not sure that'd work in your situation.

--

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Hamlet, somewhere.

by ConfusedOfHomeCounties on 2004 Dec 2 - 22:20 | login or register to post comments

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