"If you think the boss should have used a different word, why not do us all a favor and take up her generous offer of editing her post. "

How about "because I know my limit and Engrish isn't mind strong point?" ;-)

I can certainly use an editor for my school paper, I will be happy to edit for you if you are writing a Chinese or Japanese essay. But if you want me to edit someone else's English writing, you've better be paying me well.

I don't see the task as impossible though, just add fantasy in front of the word rape, or change it to "taken," as the boss herself suggests.

I am ready and willing to use and confront violence whenever it is called for. After this long debate, if you still think I have any problem with violence, then I think you are at least half blind.

Lastly, I don't think the boss has at all made it clear that consent is given in what she advocates, but she did very explicitly state that it just won't do if the woman admits to want it, to consent to it, etc, which I find a dangerous suggestion.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

In retrospect, I should have taken at least some of what I said in here to private discussion, such as e-mails. I happen to (inconveniently) live by the rule of thumb called righteous indignant, if someone insults me or my world view in public, I prefer to take them down in public.

But I do agree thread drift is a problem, I just find it interesting that you would think *I* am the one need to be taken in hand when Ram is the one to inject religion into this thread and also being the one to initiate attacks against secular humanism and feminism.

So why not finding someone to take Ram in hand? Why is it acceptable to attack secular humanism and feminism, but not Christianity?

Because you are a christian...?

I invite you (or any user here) to e-mail me if you wish to discuss theology, or other off topic issues. I might even let you contact a few boys/ men who would love any excuse to give me a bum rap... the only problem is, I am gonna love it :p~

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

I think that this thread has become a little too off-topic and repetitive, and that unless anyone has anything new and on-topic to say on it, it is time to take it to private email. If, however, you all want a forum for off-topic discussions, email me: if it would ease your frustration about being asked to try to keep posts on-topic, I am willing to provide such a forum. I just think that in the main threads, it would be better to keep things more on-topic than we have in the last 24 hours or so, because it gets a bit tedious for the reader to trawl through off-topic posts when what they really want to read about is material related to Taken In Hand relationships.

Sudolly asked why I saw her as the one who needs to be taken in hand rather than Ram. She wondered if it was because I am a Christian. It is not.

I know that it is theoretically possible for men to be taken in hand, but my mind just doesn't work that way. I am so wired for man dominates /woman submits that I project that on the world around me not just in my own relationship with my husband. For example, I can get very turned on by a story about a man spanking his wife, but I find stories in which women spank men disturbing rather than erotic. It would just never occur to me to suggest that a man needs to be taken in hand.

Sudolly, on the other hand, reminds me of myself as a young woman. I think that being taken in hand would improve her as I think it has improved me. I mean much more than simply that someone ought to spank her. I mean a relationship in which she respects and trusts a man and he has authority over her.

JK

As far as I'm concerned, the worst thing you have done, Sudolly, is make me realize how hard it is for me to remember being 23.

[For the remainder of this comment, see this page. - Ed.]

A correspondent has queried this statement of mine:

And for some men, contemplating such action forces them to face their own dark and troubling desires – desires they fear make them a monster.

I'm a rape victim. I was kidnapped and held hostage for five days against my will. I've read this post and i've read all the responses. While rape fantasies do nothing for me. i do respect the boss's right to say what she choose's to.

If you dont like it, click the cross and move on. What is the point of getting all morally uptight and yadda yadda. People, will say, do, think, read whatever they choose.

I'm sure there are things in my relationship with my Master that people dont like. But i couldnt give a furry frogs fart.

Get over it people and move on. Thats the beauty of the net. You dont have to read anything you dont wish to. Just dont crucify others for their likes!

Sudolly,

How do you reconcile feminism with the ideals of this site? They are two opposing views. This site honors the dominant man / submissive woman love relationship. Feminism at its worst is about misandry and at its best vehemently eschews the dominant man. How is it that a feminist can possibly have any interest in a dominant man?

KrosRogue

Sudolly clearly stated in an earlier post that she was not a feminist. I won't try to guess what she meant by that - just wanted to toss in that fact.

I think that I could be called a feminist along the lines the boss described. I would not call myself a feminist, however, but a humanist. The reason is that I believe in maximum freedom of choice for all people, not more for one sex or one race or whatever.

But historically, our current society evolved out of a patriarchal system where women were the chattels of men. Women acquired rights here and there over several centuries until they were more or less the legal equals of men. We tend to take most of this movement for granted, and focus on current feminism, which is now going over the top into "some are MORE equal than others."

So, while I acknowledge the obnoxiousness of much current feminism, I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, the baby being our basic legal equality. This basic equality is quite compatible with Taken In Hand, in fact, I see it as the foundation for Taken In Hand relationships. Submission can now be a gift, because it is not legally required of every woman.

Melanie

How do you reconcile feminism with the ideals of this site? They are two opposing views.

By recognizing that they are not opposing views :-)

The boss and Melaine already answered partially for me. I don't label myself as a femanist because it could mean so many different things, and not all of them I agree with. There are radical feminists who get together to burn bras and make a point to insult men. To them, feminism means getting advantages for women by hurting civil rights of men (IMO). I personally call them feminazis. There are Marxist feminists, whose ideas simply don't work (like all other Marxists ideas). Western feminists are also somewhat nortorious for speaking for and above women in other nations, assuming women in all parts of the world share their vision of what equality means, disregarding their economic and cultural differences. For all these reasons, I don't like to call myself a feminist, I think it is problematic when a word can mean so many different things. So when someone asks me if I am a feminist, I usually say, "I am all for equality, but there are some feminist ideas out there that I disagree with."

This site honors the dominant man / submissive woman love relationship.

Which works perfectly fine for me. I don't see how a woman can have ANYTHING to submit to a man when society already stripped her of power completely. Obedience and services because of lack of choices (social coercion and expectation) is oppression. It's not much of a gift, it's just manifestation of oppressive circumstansis.

In a society where men are women start out with equal footing, with equal civil rights, I can "freely" choose to submit (now I am sounding like an idealist, *sighs*). I can consent to allow my man to have dominating power over me - to have the authority to discipline me when he sees fit; to agree to let him have the final say in decisions that affect both of us, to trust him to guide me when I get too involved and become blind to my situations etc - not because my society expects me to be a doormat, a servant, a possession, or a slave of my husband, but because I find security in submitting to him, in knowing there is someone I can always look up to, to be accountable for.

Feminism at its worst is about misandry and at its best vehemently eschews the dominant man. How is it that a feminist can possibly have any interest in a dominant man?

By disliking the "worst" kind of feminism that you described?

My idea of feminism is about equality, not in the sense that men are exact same as women in nature, but men and women should share equal civil rights. In fact, when taken that way, I think feminism benefits BOTH men and women. I feel sorry for my male classmates, really, I do. They still live in a society (Canada) that is somewhat patriarchal, masculinity is automatically implies power, and femininity is automatically linked to the lack of. Boys are expected to conform to what is culturally deem as "masculine" to maintain power - macho talks, high level of education, professional job, regular gym works to maintain 6 pack -- and at the same time, they are informed, sensitive nice guys, so they still have to find time to do the dishes, share the house chores with their girl friends, and on and on and on (and still find time to do homework, and drive their visiting parents around on weekends, etc etc, of course). Our idea of masculinity seems to be grounded in what our culture says a man ideally is - which is quite ironic - when was the last time you saw an "ideal" man? If you haven't seen one yet, then why do we identify masculinity as something that nobody can achieve? Why don't we define masculinity as what men ACTUALLY are?

Feminism more or less deconstructs these social expections, or social coercion. A "good woman" doesn't need to to be quiet and sumissive and skinny and powerless any more than a "good man" needs to has a 6-pack and be a CEO and be a leader in society and bring home the bacon. An individual is an individual, he might be submissive; she might be powerful, there is no need to coerce them to change their nature to conform to hegemonic social ideologies. Like Melanie, I like freedom to self-expression and self-determination. (I am still trying to figure out why.) Which is why I support equality - or some forms of feminism.

So although Sudolly and I have our differences ;-) I applaude her courage in facing the fact that she is drawn to Taken In Hand. In this, she is sure to attract ire from some other feminists, and I only wish I myself had had her bravery in my early 20s.

Why, boss, that's a nice compliment :p~ It's really not that hard; and I am not particularly brave. For all my faults, I only try to be honest to myself and speak all that is in my mind. If I can walk up to this site and tell everyone I am disgusted that they think submission is an obligation and not a choice, I can also walk tall in the academia admitting to personally and subjectively prefer a dominant man in my life. I don't need to be powerless to be a submissive, and I don't need to be domineering to be a scholar. I am not afraid of confrontations and social repercussions, recognising my internal needs, desires, and beliefs, is more important than conforming to what my environment needs me to be.

Lastly, I don't have all the answers, I still have troubles reconciling the two sometimes, but that's fine with me too. I have learn from experience, a lot of things in life doesn't make sense immediately. (I still don't know why self-determination is important to me, but I recognize my affinity for it). It is foolish to rationalize to death and then make yourself conform to what you think (or your society says) makes sense. Otherwise, I will be like Rene Descarte, sitting around all day wondering if I am anything more than a brain in a jar with consciousness.

Then it appears we don't disagree. I already expressed that I am unimpressed with radical faminists.

However, I disagree with you that feminism starts with contempt towards men; I think feminism starts with recognition that society hasn't been treating women fairly and that it needs to be corrected. Some of them might be a little skittish; some of them might have gone too far; some of them might be a little reactionary. But I still think feminism is about recognizing that women are no less worthy than men and therefore should have equal civil rights; to invert the maltreatment and mistreat men is still embracing inequality, and a bit hypocritical.

Instead of looking at those who shout the loudest and shake my head complaining feminism can't work, I prefer to fix what is broken. Besides, it's true that radical feminists had given feminism a bad rap, but at least it brings awareness to the issue of inequality, so I don't think they are entirely without merits.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

Though I love mashed potatoes, I can't stand anything about feminism. I was deceived like most others when I was younger. Now having had friends explain things and then doing research on my own the past year, my eyes have been opened to what feminism really is, extreme or not.

“Were women to ‘unsex’ themselves by claiming equality with men, they would become the most hateful, heathen and disgusting of beings, and would surely perish without male protection.” (Queen Victoria, 1870)

She said that in a day when the roles of man and women were much more clear for survival and strength of the nation. Men and women have unique roles and they compliment each other perfectly with them. Today however, in our modern wealth and liberalism, the roles of men and women are skewed in the interest of money and power. The social and political maneuvering of feminist agendas has done more to weaken western nations than any other enemy army in history. The label of victim for women has resulted in government and society heaping privileges and freedoms onto women at the expense of men and many traditionally minded women, destroying families and lives with agenda-forcing laws.

Feminism has seeped into culture so much, its is like a plague, the scars will always be there even after the body heals. I believe that one reason why much of our culture has embraced the term “rape” in relation to womens fantasy, is not because women want to be raped, but because people have lost any moral wisdom to be repulsed by what rape really stands for. Society is so reluctant to deny women what they want, that it has come to accept skewing the English language and believe women want rape, on a womans terms. Much of this is because of feminism, society encourages women to do what they want, complete liberty, from using biased justice systems to take advantage of men to using words that women don’t really mean, such as rape.

Don’t get me wrong, I cherish women and who they are. However it is clear feminism does not, because feminism tries to make women to be competitors and enemies of men which is against the very nature of women all together. Feminism has raped men and women of better lives, for those who have been directly affected, I would venture to guess they never would have had a fantasy for it.

Perhaps we could discuss privately my views in full lest we make a scene? Perhaps in time you will see what I mean. I think you misunderstand my idea of relationships. I am not a slave driver, I don't wish to hit women, or break their feet. Rather, one day I hope to be a husband of a wife who is strong, my equal by design. A woman I could love so much that I would give my life for to protect if only to have her love in return. Call me old-fashioned, a sort of hopeless romantic, but I believe in roles of men and women. Far as I am concerned, given the chance, my wife will have the far more privileged role.

Let's remember that rape concerns ALL of us! I have to admit finding it hard to believe that the issue of rape got mixed up in a debate on femiminism. Surely we had moved on? Rape is forcing one's way into another's body regardless of their plea. How could it even be argued about?!

There are two issues here: that of rape, and that of play. If an individual - and let's say it again, it doesn't only concern women! - says 'no' to any kind of sex, forcing that sex upon them is raping them. Point, blank, period. Regardless of their gender, age or previous experience (or lack thereof, unfortunately, in many instances). So boys, if they say 'no' don't bother worrying whether they meant it or not: just go away, it's so much safer.

Excellent post Kirk, and that is exactly what my latest article is about, to question the very concept of rape fantasy and use of the word rape in relation to a woman's fantasy. This thread has really helped me understand the different views on the subject.

PS: sudolly; i cant find your email, so maybe email me if you want to discuss our views on modern culture and feminism. My email is in my profile.

Jerry

I was raped and got pregnant and had three years of lawyers and feeling like the dirty and bad person, it was hell, nothing less than hell. I think this is not the arena and it's a sad piece.

I say feminism is like a rapist, it has come into our lives by force and stolen from us"

Stinks, does it? Why is it that Christians typically find it 100% acceptable to bully, assault, threaten, ostracize, slander, libel, and generally behave like 24k jerk-offs toward secular humanist/ atheists/ feminists, and at the same time abhor the idea of the same be done to their own worldview?

Feminism, unlike Christianity-the-rapist, is like police. It corrects the traditional inequality and returns the basic human rights to women.

I posted my e-mail address earlier on this thread: uvicwebhotmail.com

I have no interest in your personal plan of how to treat your partner, it's your hostility against feminism and equality that I am responding to.

Your e-mail address is not in your profile, at least it is not visible to the others. Please read the instruction in "my profile" carefully.

I had always told my husband that anal sex was not ok.

One night we were drinking and I became incapacitatingly drunk. He took me to the bedroom, deposited me on the bed, undressed me, and decided that he wanted me to wear a very sexy black dress. Somehow he managed to get me into that dress. When he finished dressing me he turned me over onto my stomach, hiked up my dress and put it where I did not want it. This is all I remember. I passed out at this point.

The next morning when I sobered up, I remembered the incident. Was I mad. You bet I was. And yes, I did lay into him. On the outside I was raging. On the inside I felt good.

According to the law, this is considered "Date Rape".

I did not consent.
I was beyond the capacity to say no and to resist.

I don't feel like a victim.
I don't think he is a violent agressor.
I don't think what he did was wrong.
I don't think my internal reaction was wrong.

These kinds of sexual acts don't damage my trust in him.
They don't make me fear him.
They don't make me stop loving him.
They don't stop me from respecting him.
They don't stop me from communicating with him.

I can't justify why this dynamic in our relationship isn't wrong. I can't justify my reactions to it. They just are.

To some people this would make us "sick" or "evil" or both. I really don't care what those people think. It just isn't possible to justify, rationalize, or to even try to begin to explain. It just is.

To clarify: I know rape is wrong. I know that it involves a victim and a violent agressor. In the context of my relationship I don't feel it is wrong.

This article is out of line. Rape fantasies are not like rape. At all. The notion that a woman wants to be raped is absolutely insane. In a rape fantasy, the woman still retains the control. In a rape "scene" there is no real threat. Women certainly fantasize about rape, but they are not dealing in the reality of if. In reality, the rapist may be fat, bald, unwashed, whatever a woman may find physically repulsive. I understand the spirit of what the article says, but no woman wants to be raped. To suggest such a thing is a sign of a disturbed, or deeply stupid, mind.

Name withheld:

You are not alone in what you experienced but, I have to say, you are the first woman who has ever admitted it to others. That I've heard anyway. I have had a very similar experience with an ex-husband of mine, though we were married at the time. It was wrong at the time it happened and it's still wrong after all the years since it happened. And what is so confusing and unsettleing (not sure of that spelling there) is how my body reacted. I've always referred to it as my body betraying me in some way I still to this day do not understand. Whenever I'm asked what my most memorable sexual experience was, I *always* think of that time and yet, am too ashamed, most times, to admit it to anyone else.

I know that I do desire to be taken that way again...not under the same circumstances but in a consenting/non-consensual way, if that makes sense. It's very hard to explain here and if you would like to talk more about it privately, my email is: untamedlady2002yahoo.com or masters_desirehotmail.com. I check both those emails daily.

desire

Yes, it is hard to describe and after reading Stephen's article on it, I have to say that I think it is more about that *need* to be controlled in yet a totally different way. A physical, primal, animalistic type of control. It's not in a fear of one's life or that he is capable of holding me down physically. Something happened inside of me as I was fighting tooth and nail to stop it, with tears running like a river, my body had the gall to betray me and physically respond and even more un-nerving was when it actually released when I was trying so hard to *not* respond. I will never in my life forget that feeling as long as I live. And I sometimes wonder if that can ever be duplicated again in a more consensual way.

It wasn't repressed sexuality or suppressed sexuality or longing for a traditional archaic (not sure of that spelling) relationship. It was pure physical response even when my mind was saying "Stop". Was I harmed by the experience? I don't think so. If I felt harmed in the process, I would not be talking about it now and would be hiding what it did to me. I admit that I have been afraid or ashamed of telling others because most do not understand exactly what happened and I don't know how to explain it very well because I don't understand it myself.

Who said anything about a scene? I checked and the boss didn't use the word in her article once.

Why is it people can't get their head around what's being said here? It's not legal rape, it's not really against the woman's will, the woman WANTS it.

I'm the cured timid lover who just posted above about the woman in my life who I took in that sudden un-asked for way and who, upon that defining moment was irreversibly changed... I wanted to add that a very very important ingredient seems required if this is to work. And that is, that she knows I truly love her and would never really harm her. Without love then yes, I think it would be just a passing sensorial game or something fitting for all these cheap so-called 'erotic' and BDSM or whatever they are called - sites. But with the Love - real Love... Real respect and trust, and she knows that I am a very gentle-handed man... then what's the big deal? It becomes more beautiful with each passing moment. And very liberating, if I may add. Thanks.

An anonymous reader wrote:

My only comment is that this is Inappropriate Material for a spanking site and reading your article I think you need help. Noone in their Right Mind wants this. A therapist might be able to help you figure out where this self hatred originated. I'm sorry but this is not healthy and you people need help.

Secondly, is it any healthier to repress these desires and let them eat away your insides, wondering if you are ill to have them? Especially when so many people react in a blinkered way without even trying to understand the matter. One of the people who replied to this article tried to talk to a therapist about her encounter and experiences, and was met with disbelief and disgust. Besdies, it is a common fantasy - it's even acknowledged in some mainstream sex books (the sort you can buy in normal high street book stores). I did come across a theory in one of them that this is the reason why (some?) women like being taken from behind - they can't see who it is, so they can fantasize all they like... and yes, the implication was a taken-by-force type of fantasy.

Thirdly, I personally think the best person to decide on the content for this site is the site owner. Who also happened to wrote the article in question.

Fourthly, given the baldness of your statement, I'm guessing/hoping you have some professional expertise in this area? Perhaps, then, you'd like to contribute more fully to the debate - explain why, in your professional opinion, these fantasies are unhealthy? And why these fantasies suggest to you that we all have self-hate issues?

--

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Hamlet, somewhere.

I think the problem is the word 'rape.' Any woman who has ever been sexually assaulted knows that rape is not an erotic experience. It is not erotic to be held against your will and repeatedly forced into physical intimacy with someone you barely know or don’t know at all. Someone whose physical touch is repulsive to you.

Rape is like being thrown off the side of a cliff on a dark, moonless night. You don’t know how many injuries you are going to sustain, you don’t know when the trauma is going to end, and you don’t even know if you are going to live through it. The event is nothing but terror from start to finish. It may haunt you for years to come. It may even interfere with or inhibit your ability to sustain intimate relationships (at least for a while).

In contrast, insistent sex with someone you love and trust is like a tandem sky dive. He knows where he is taking you. You trust him to get you there safely. He’s going to pull that rip cord in time. The entire experience is exhilarating, tinged with fear and but part of an exercise in yielding trust. It builds on the depth of emotion, it does not leave permanent scars.

In respect to all the women who have been victims of sexual assault, I think the fantasy of rape needs a new label.

I am new here but I thought I’d jump right in.

;-)

Maddy

An anonymous reader wrote:

No one in their Right Mind wants this. A therapist might be able to help you figure out where this self hatred originated. I'm sorry but this is not healthy and you people need help.

Spending an hour a week wallowing in your childhood traumas with a therapist who disapproves of your sexual fantasies, and paying a lot of money for it.

Keeping your sexual fantasies to yourself throughout your marriage, trying very hard and unsuccessfully to be turned on by "normal sex," making sex dull and boring for yourself and your partner.

Never sharing your true self with your partner, so he can never really know you.

Telling yourself over and over again that you're a pervert, that you shouldn't be what you obviously are, that what you feel is bad and wrong. Telling yourself that you're insane, that no one in their Right Mind would be like you.

Many of us know from experience what these self-hating behaviors can do to a marriage, because they are also barriers to happiness, good sex, and intimacy.

Self-loving behaviors:

Accepting your sexual nature fully, telling yourself that your fantasies are good and normal, sharing them with your partner.

Being happy, turned on, and open is also a gift to your partner. He will be happier, more turned on, and more open because you are.

Melanie

Anon,

Thanks for replying to my question.

From your two posts, it looks like that you've maybe read a lot of what's been said in this and other threads with standard-issue society blinkers. And that is understandable, to be honest. A lot of what is talked about on here would be seen as repressive at best, abuse at worst.

The original article, and many of the replies, are about women wanting to be taken by force by the man they love. It's partly going into that quite hard to properly explain area of consensual non-consent - where the woman effectively say to the man "I trust you to do whatever you like to/with me because I know you value me and us enough not to do anything that will jeopardise our relationship". And the boss rightly pointed out that this is something that should be discussed and understood first. Initial reactions to the fantasy tend to run along the lines you've stated, even if the man has harboured the matching fantasy (of taking his woman by force). We don't want to be mistreated, just treated forcefully and maybe roughly.

As Melanie said:

Women here are clearly saying that they crave a sexual encounter where they have no control. But the one thing they do want to control is WHO can do this to them. While the WHO in a fantasy might be a stranger, in a real-life encounter, the WHO must be someone you trust who knows what you want.

--

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Hamlet, somewhere.

I don't have a problem with your article insofar as it goes but why's it always the ladies that gets to be raped this way? What about the blokes? Me and my mates are well up for being forcefully raped but we never get a look-in. Why's it ok for ladies but not lads? Why's it one rule for the ladies and another for the blokes? Why's it always the woman that gets to be the one being 'used and abused' and 'roughed up' this way? If the wife would rape me once in a while I'd happily do my bit for her in return but I can just see the look on her face if I was to suggest it. I'd be eating dinner in the doghouse. Mind you, I'd probably be eating dinner in the doghouse if I was to suggest raping her too as she's nothing like the women on this site but I reckon if she wanted any hardcore sex it would be what you talk about in your article not doing me that way. I read your other article for partner that aren't getting enough sex - sad or what? But I tried that and she didn't even notice. I have to practically rape her to get any and it's been this way for so long I don't remember how long.

Dave

Dave, you might like to read this reply I posted, in which I said:

Where has this wild assumption that we are too sexually repressed not to want to take a man by force on occasion come from? Again, whilst it may well be true of some women, it is an entirely unwarranted assumption to make here.

OK, rape is wrong. And if it's consensual, it isn't rape. What's being discussed here is forceful, violent sex for mutual pleasure, regardless of the semantics involved in the description. It's being described as rape and as a fantasy to be explored.

You think that this is wrong, probably because you don't understand the dynamics involved. I admit I don't fully understand it myself, but one thing I do understand; in an intimate relationship, discussion of fantasies, no matter how wild they may be, is essential.

What is wrong is not communicating. What is wrong is not trusting your SO enough to bare your inner core. What is wrong is hiding yourself and your desires, making the relationship into a shallow mockery.

KrosRogue

At the risk of bursting your bubble, I've got news for you: wanting violant criminal acts to be perpetrated against yourself could get you committed in an institution. It's not normal, and the blending of fantasy with real violence is not only sick, it's dangerous too. You're a man, KrosRog, you know how hard it can be to figure out what a woman wants. Asking a Man to rape you could lead to you getting taken against your Real Will, ie raped. This is a dangerous game these women are playing, and if you allow yourself to be sucked into it you'll be looking at a cell wall for years to come.

This is a dangerous game these women are playing, and if you allow yourself to be sucked into it you'll be looking at a cell wall for years to come.

The UNEXCUSEABLE misfortune is the main thrust of what I wrote. The lack of intimate discussion between a man and his wife is tragic, and that disease is widespread. There should be no subject that can't be discussed in what should be the closest relationship any person on the face of this earth can have. I think the lack of communication is also a very dangerous game, one that can have devastating results rivalling the ones you describe.

KrosRogue

It's interesting to read the comments from those women who say they've been raped and that it was a sexual experience. I've read that many women develop rape fantasies after being raped - is this what we're seeing here? To those women who describe their experience of rape as being positive or not wholly negative - could it be that you were raped before that and you developed rape fantasies and some kind of affinity for it after being raped? It's an interesting question why this happens if it does and there's additionally the question of what is the cause of one woman deriving pleasujre from the act of rape while most bear the psychological scars for a long while. It's great to see so much mature discussion on a topic like this.

Kev

I have never met any woman who has in any sense enjoyed being raped by a stranger. However, I think there have been several comments on this thread from several women saying that they have experienced rape by a husband or boyfriend as a sexual experience. See, for example, this comment and the reply by Desire. Of course it can't be at all a positive experience if you fear for your life, as is often the case in rape (including when the rapist is your husband), but if you don't feel unsafe, it can be for some women.

This is a reflection on the strength of the women and in no way exculpates the men who have done this.

Hello

I don't share the condemnation expressed by Ramileous and to a lesser extent, others, of rape fantasies. I am a man, and I cannot see anything wrong with a woman having rape fantasies.

I have lately more and more been coming to the view that experience is what you make of it. I know it's hard to stretch that to cover everything, but I feel you are to be congratulated in admitting, and therefore in a way sanctifying, your rape experience: you weren't traumatized, but enriched. Was rape really a gift for you? It seems like it. Life has its dark sides and they have to be accepted: by accepting them it seems we turn them to good account. I'm glad for you that you had that most intense sexual experience, and drew the acceptance of it out of what for most would have been a tragedy.

Many spiritual teachers teach us that every experience is ‘good’ for us, even sought for by some deep part of our being. I have no difficulty with that. If God is omnipotent, as Christians and others like to say, then He would have no difficulty in preventing these ‘evil’ acts of rape or whatever if that was His wish. Nothing happens that is not His will: it cannot be otherwise.

I should say that I have no desire to rape my wife, and I don't know if she desires it;probably not, since she's always willing for sex. However I would love to give her a good whipping – with her consent, of course!

I feel that I really understand those women who want to be ‘raped’, taken against their will, depite their utmost resistance, and see nothing contradictory about that.
I am putting this on the Taken In Hand site, but want to send it to you privately too in token of your bravery in giving out you email address.

Malcolm

So what do people do when one partner reveals a desire that is very important to them, and it turns the other one off? Living without seems awful, but doing things you find repulsive is awful, too.

Melanie

To imply that anyone in a "consensual" relationship would not agree ahead of time to a safe word when it comes to fantasy play, is a grave misinterruptation of the relationship iteself. This alone is an answer to your question of a "safe word" being needed. So, you are sadly in the dark when it comes to how a true bond works and evolves between a loving couple. Obviously you are not "mature", despite your age. Please take a step back and re-examine how your input distorts and misleads the many who enjoy the open and honest exchange of ideas in this site.
Your "be safe, sane, and consensual" remark at the end of your response is all too familiar.

A very pleased participant in this lifestyle CHOICE

SQ

First of all, I want to say that I'm, well, surprised to have found this place, and a little glad. My girlfriend told me recently that she thought about rape fantasy. Since this relationship is relatively young, and it happened to be the night before she went back to New England (I'm down on Long Island), we did not act upon it. But I felt the need to better educate myself on the topic, and lo and behold I found this site. So I suppose I owe a debt of gratitude to the boss and the rest of the posters here.

That said...

Name Withheld wrote:

"If more men knew how most women feel about this they might do what Dan did for Amber. It's an ache inside, a piece missing. I long to share that kind of passion with my husband, instead, we're comfortable and nice and we make love... why is raw unvarnished sex so verboten? When are we going to drop the masks, drop the pretences, and do it how we want?

How can it be wrong to give a woman what she wants with all her being? How can it be an evil act or not consensual? Why are people so quick to judge others?"

-----------------------

Hmm, where to begin? I suppose I'll start by saying that I'm slightly more defensive in terms of male stereotypes than most, but I've gotten better over the years. I don't take offense quite as fast as I once did. However, this comment really grabbed my attention. As others in this thread have done before, I'm going to use the "think about it from the other side of the fence" technique.

Hypothetical guy Joe has fantasies. Great, we all do. One of his fantasies is to have sex with his girlfriend while, say, she is covered in tobasco sauce and has a spiked collar on. Certainly not something you normally hear about, but where is the harm, right? He really, REALLY wants to do this. It gets him really aroused to think about. It actually causes him some pain inside, an "ache" when he thinks about this unfulfilled fantasy.

But his girlfriend is uncomfortable with the idea. For whatever reasons, perhaps objectification, perhaps the physical sensations involved, perhaps just because she hates the smell of tobasco sauce, she doesn't like the idea. She doesn't find it erotic, and she would feel uncomfortable if she were to acquiesce to Joe's request.

Is it wrong of her to deny his request? Is she "hiding behind a mask" by saying no, because she really wants to do it? Is she not a real WOMAN because she won't give her man what he wants in this case? Does she not have the proverbial "balls"?

Also, "do it how we want"?

...excuse me? How do you know how I want to make love? If you DO know, then you'd better get a patent on that mind reader of yours right away!

These are things that your post suggests, Name Withheld. While I recognize that consensual lovemaking with the trappings of forced sex can, if properly approached, be a fine thing, it has to be CONSENSUAL. EVERYONE on this site seems to have a good grasp of that statement, but I think many are overlooking part of the implication.

Consent means that a person is willing, and it seems that in this topic that the person WANTS, to go through with the act. You seem to be so hung up on establishing that the woman wants this Consensual Act of Forced Lovemaking (tm) - hereafter knowns as CAFL, which I'll use instead of the term "rape" since that seems to be a HUGE part of the disagreements on this topic! - that you are overlooking whether or not the man wants to act this out. I'm sure that the majority of men ARE afraid of the implications of acting out a CAFL fantasy, for a number of (sensible) reasons. But as we've established previously, it's simply a matter of taste. Some women DO fantasize about it, and some don't. Some abhor the idea, and some don't find it erotic at all.

Why can the same not be true of men? Perhaps they simply cannot conceive of a CAFL as erotic, arousing, romantic, loving, or any of the other things you profess it capable of being.

I'm not saying these fantasies are wrong to have, not at all. Hell, my own girlfriend apparently has them! What I'm trying to say is that it is not wrong NOT to have them, or to feel uncomfortable going along with them. Please do not say or imply that men who will not fulfill CAFL fantasies are somehow less than those who will.

I have more to say on the topic, and while I haven't read this entire thread (it is LONG!), I'm going to break it up into another post because it is a different topic.

~ Story

Yes, the man has to want it too, or at least find it reasonably tolerable. We should not expect our partners to engage in sexual practices that are repulsive or highly uncomfortable for them. I don't think my husband would be able to act out a realistic CAFL - I think he would be completely turned off by the appearance of nonconsent. Possibly he could push through this if I really wanted it and begged him for it, but we'll never know because I don't want it.

I've known several men who said they were completely turned off by any reluctance on the woman's part. Other men have told me they couldn't bring themselves to spank a woman no matter how much she wanted it. And I know there are fantasies that I couldn't tolerate either. Any kind of bondage sends me into a complete panic.

Melanie

Great post, Story! Looking forward to many future posts from you. Real interesting! Curious to know what more you have to say on this topic. Do tell!

Reesa

Interesting comments but that's not what i got from the post you were replying to. I thought they were talking about the case where guys are uncomfortable because they think it's wrong, not other reasons. If guys think it's wrong because "rape" isn't consensual, and they feel uncomfortable for that reason, then if the girls explain it is consensual, then the guys can see it's not wrong and might then be OK with doing it.

Well, interpretations are one of the demons of the Internet, given the nature of the text-based medium of communication ;)

With regards to the latter part of your comment, I would point out that, at least by my interpretation, alot of the women here claiming to have or recognize this fantasy say that the setup cheapens it...that "staging" the scenario makes it lose its charm. I think that the same "special element" that makes it really work for these women can be the very thing that makes it really not work some men. It's the authenticity; some part of it has to be real, or realistic, for the erotic quality to persist (or so I have come to understand from reading this thread). That authenticity will forever cause certain [types of] men to have lingering doubts or feelings of disgust toward their own actions.

In the end...this fantasy is probably no different from any other, except in terms of the sociopolitical ramifications it carries. Some people will find it erotic, and some won't. Some will be able to fake it for the sake of their lovers...and some won't.

~ Story

Does the control have to be rape for your girlfriend or is it control that does it for her and rape is one example of that?

I don't think it HAS to be. I think there is something positive in more subtle expressions of control for her as well. There was an instance where she wasn't allowed to move or open her eyes unless I said she could. She said she enjoyed that. She also says she always prefers to be on the bottom. I know that there is a little more complexity to the situation than "top=dominant, bottom=submissive", but I'm sure there is some sort of link.

I'm into intensity, "in extremis", being on the edge, etc. If this is part of what attracts her to rape/CAFL, you could use that fact to find ways of having sex that both of you like.

Good question. I suppose I'll have to find out! We set a date for her next visit, and it isn't terribly far away, so I guess I'll know soon enough.

What are you Story into? You haven't said much about that. What are your sexual fantasies? What turns you on? Is there potential common ground there?

Ugh...this is going to sound like such a cop-out...

What turns me on is seeing her turned on. It could be any number of little things, or something more overt. The first time we had sex (after no small amount of awkward experimentation - we were both virgins before that night), when we found something that worked, I could hear her ragged breathing. I could see her hands clutching convulsively at the sheets or the edge of the bed. THAT was erotic for me.

So in a way...anything that doesn't expressly kill the mood for me could be considered common ground, I suppose. I know how corny that sounds, but it's the honest truth. I read the reaction I get out of her, and my own body just...responds in kind! It's one of the reasons I'm so avid about finding a way through this little challenge; the faster and better I am at being able to arouse her, the better it will be for myself.

I hope that answers at least some of your questions!

~ Story

P.S. The new Ghost in the Shell series, Standalone Complex, was awesome! I highly recommend.

OK... here's another question for you, Story: what is it about CAFL that kills the mood for you?

Well, allow me to reiterate something from a previous post of mine:

I think that the same "special element" that makes it really work for these women can be the very thing that makes it really not work for some men...Some people will find it erotic, and some won't. Some will be able to fake it for the sake of their lovers...and some won't.

It has everything to do with it, because in the end, real rape is what is being simulated. For some people (myself included), it isn't simply a matter of flipping a switch and detaching the real-world implications of a fantasy from the fantasy itself.

Let's take a look at another example. I abhor murder; understood easily enough. Now, if someone wants me to act out several realistic scenes in which I murder small children for fun, would you expect me to go along with this? We're not talking about a movie here, we're talking about someone wanting me to act something out because it will invoke some sort of positive reaction in him or her. This person finds something tasteful in an act that I find completely unacceptable. Even with the knowledge that it is staged, should I really be comfortable with this?

Now I'm not equating CAFL fantasies with killing small children...please don't say that I am. I suppose I am equating real rape with such a crime, at least in the sense of my own personal reactions to each.

I guess the point is, it will always be in my mind that I am acting out something that I consider to be a vile and utterly inhumane crime, even if it is just acting. That feeling is internal on my part, no matter what. Reading a reaction that comes from my girlfriend in response to this act is going to be inherently external. Guess which one will have higher priority?

One more point to address:

If what turns you on is seeing her turned on, one possible way you could go with this would be if you began to "read the reaction you get out of her" different - like, if you started reading her reactions in rape/CAFL more accurately - seeing how turned on she is by it etc - then it might start turning you on instead of killing the mood.

This isn't meant to be an attack, but I believe you have some fundamental flaws in your argument here. First, there's a difference between reading the reaction I get out of her differently, and reading her reaction accurately. I've never actually acted out a CAFL fantasy with her, so I haven't had the opportunity to read her reaction in such a situation. Second, it wouldn't matter. See previous paragraph about internal/external reactions.

I don't think I'm ever really going to be able to do the CAFL thing. Control in other forms? Sure. I suppose, that's what I'm looking for. Either way, I really appreciate the feedback I'm getting here =)

~ Story

I need better post headings, don't I?

I'd like to know what others think of the whole thing...

...because it doesn't feel like it's acting out a real rape to me, it feels like an intense consensual experience.

If you 'rape' her like she wants, I don't reckon she'll look fearful or nonconsenting.

Are you saying that you could never under any circumstances do anything sexually that would even allude to nonconsent?

I don't think it is THAT severe. Critical threshold, remember? ;)

Like, are you saying you'd never want to hold her hands when you're making love, in a way hinting at nonconsent?

You mean like pinning her wrists to the bed with my own hands? Nah, that doesn't bother me. In fact, we did that once. Wasn't a problem. Speaking of which...

Or you'd never want to take a silk ribbon and loosely tie her?

...we did that too! Well, we used a hair scrunchee, since that's all that was available at the time, but it's similar enough, no?

Like, you'd always find the mood was killed if she, under you in the missionary position, seemed to wriggle/writhe in a manner hinting at nonconsent?

Interesting question. And honestly, I think it would. As soon as I start to pick up signals that I interpret as "bad", my immediate reaction is to stop. Perhaps that reaction is a little too severe...quick anecdotal example.

Our first time, once we got into a rhythm that seemed to be working for her, she made sounds from time to time. You know, back-of-the-throat or short-ragged-gasp or flightly-moaning sounds? Well, half the time I couldn't tell if the she was expressing pleasure or pain, and if I felt unsure I would stop and ask if she was alright. Just about every time, she said she was fine, that it didn't hurt.

Okay...I just re-read that. That reaction was PROBABLY too severe.

Would that be so even if she seemed to be deriving a lot of pleasure from the lovemaking?

Again, to be honest, I'm having trouble reconciling the vision of her both fighting and appearing to enjoy it. I think I would need first hand experience to tell how I would react to that. I guess that brings us back to the root of the problem, no?

Another way to go would be to question the idea of requiring explicit consent.

Er, under no circumstances whatsoever would I even consider something like this without prior explicit consent. Of that I am sure.

I'm aware you're wanting help with control examples - have you done a search on this Website for the word "control" and checked out the examples given here? There's a wealth of material here.

Not yet. I've read a number of the Tour articles, and this one; that's about it. I haven't had a whole lot of time, but I suppose I should try and find it somewhere.

Thanks again for the feedback. I wonder if anyone else has some input?

~ Story

Story, is it that you question whether the enjoyment she would get is real - you don't believe her that she would enjoy it? - or what is it that's interfering? It looks like you have severely hampering responses - would you yourself enjoy the feeling of being out of control, controlled, maybe forced in a rape fantasy or "CAFL" way? Maybe you need to explore the idea of being forced before you can enjoy forcing. Good luck, Story.

-- Jasmine