I had always told my husband that anal sex was not ok.

One night we were drinking and I became incapacitatingly drunk. He took me to the bedroom, deposited me on the bed, undressed me, and decided that he wanted me to wear a very sexy black dress. Somehow he managed to get me into that dress. When he finished dressing me he turned me over onto my stomach, hiked up my dress and put it where I did not want it. This is all I remember. I passed out at this point.

The next morning when I sobered up, I remembered the incident. Was I mad. You bet I was. And yes, I did lay into him. On the outside I was raging. On the inside I felt good.

According to the law, this is considered "Date Rape".

I did not consent.
I was beyond the capacity to say no and to resist.

I don't feel like a victim.
I don't think he is a violent agressor.
I don't think what he did was wrong.
I don't think my internal reaction was wrong.

These kinds of sexual acts don't damage my trust in him.
They don't make me fear him.
They don't make me stop loving him.
They don't stop me from respecting him.
They don't stop me from communicating with him.

I can't justify why this dynamic in our relationship isn't wrong. I can't justify my reactions to it. They just are.

To some people this would make us "sick" or "evil" or both. I really don't care what those people think. It just isn't possible to justify, rationalize, or to even try to begin to explain. It just is.

To clarify: I know rape is wrong. I know that it involves a victim and a violent agressor. In the context of my relationship I don't feel it is wrong.

This article is out of line. Rape fantasies are not like rape. At all. The notion that a woman wants to be raped is absolutely insane. In a rape fantasy, the woman still retains the control. In a rape "scene" there is no real threat. Women certainly fantasize about rape, but they are not dealing in the reality of if. In reality, the rapist may be fat, bald, unwashed, whatever a woman may find physically repulsive. I understand the spirit of what the article says, but no woman wants to be raped. To suggest such a thing is a sign of a disturbed, or deeply stupid, mind.

Name withheld:

You are not alone in what you experienced but, I have to say, you are the first woman who has ever admitted it to others. That I've heard anyway. I have had a very similar experience with an ex-husband of mine, though we were married at the time. It was wrong at the time it happened and it's still wrong after all the years since it happened. And what is so confusing and unsettleing (not sure of that spelling there) is how my body reacted. I've always referred to it as my body betraying me in some way I still to this day do not understand. Whenever I'm asked what my most memorable sexual experience was, I *always* think of that time and yet, am too ashamed, most times, to admit it to anyone else.

I know that I do desire to be taken that way again...not under the same circumstances but in a consenting/non-consensual way, if that makes sense. It's very hard to explain here and if you would like to talk more about it privately, my email is: untamedlady2002yahoo.com or masters_desirehotmail.com. I check both those emails daily.

desire

Yes, it is hard to describe and after reading Stephen's article on it, I have to say that I think it is more about that *need* to be controlled in yet a totally different way. A physical, primal, animalistic type of control. It's not in a fear of one's life or that he is capable of holding me down physically. Something happened inside of me as I was fighting tooth and nail to stop it, with tears running like a river, my body had the gall to betray me and physically respond and even more un-nerving was when it actually released when I was trying so hard to *not* respond. I will never in my life forget that feeling as long as I live. And I sometimes wonder if that can ever be duplicated again in a more consensual way.

It wasn't repressed sexuality or suppressed sexuality or longing for a traditional archaic (not sure of that spelling) relationship. It was pure physical response even when my mind was saying "Stop". Was I harmed by the experience? I don't think so. If I felt harmed in the process, I would not be talking about it now and would be hiding what it did to me. I admit that I have been afraid or ashamed of telling others because most do not understand exactly what happened and I don't know how to explain it very well because I don't understand it myself.

Who said anything about a scene? I checked and the boss didn't use the word in her article once.

Why is it people can't get their head around what's being said here? It's not legal rape, it's not really against the woman's will, the woman WANTS it.

I'm the cured timid lover who just posted above about the woman in my life who I took in that sudden un-asked for way and who, upon that defining moment was irreversibly changed... I wanted to add that a very very important ingredient seems required if this is to work. And that is, that she knows I truly love her and would never really harm her. Without love then yes, I think it would be just a passing sensorial game or something fitting for all these cheap so-called 'erotic' and BDSM or whatever they are called - sites. But with the Love - real Love... Real respect and trust, and she knows that I am a very gentle-handed man... then what's the big deal? It becomes more beautiful with each passing moment. And very liberating, if I may add. Thanks.

An anonymous reader wrote:

My only comment is that this is Inappropriate Material for a spanking site and reading your article I think you need help. Noone in their Right Mind wants this. A therapist might be able to help you figure out where this self hatred originated. I'm sorry but this is not healthy and you people need help.

Secondly, is it any healthier to repress these desires and let them eat away your insides, wondering if you are ill to have them? Especially when so many people react in a blinkered way without even trying to understand the matter. One of the people who replied to this article tried to talk to a therapist about her encounter and experiences, and was met with disbelief and disgust. Besdies, it is a common fantasy - it's even acknowledged in some mainstream sex books (the sort you can buy in normal high street book stores). I did come across a theory in one of them that this is the reason why (some?) women like being taken from behind - they can't see who it is, so they can fantasize all they like... and yes, the implication was a taken-by-force type of fantasy.

Thirdly, I personally think the best person to decide on the content for this site is the site owner. Who also happened to wrote the article in question.

Fourthly, given the baldness of your statement, I'm guessing/hoping you have some professional expertise in this area? Perhaps, then, you'd like to contribute more fully to the debate - explain why, in your professional opinion, these fantasies are unhealthy? And why these fantasies suggest to you that we all have self-hate issues?

--

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Hamlet, somewhere.

I think the problem is the word 'rape.' Any woman who has ever been sexually assaulted knows that rape is not an erotic experience. It is not erotic to be held against your will and repeatedly forced into physical intimacy with someone you barely know or don’t know at all. Someone whose physical touch is repulsive to you.

Rape is like being thrown off the side of a cliff on a dark, moonless night. You don’t know how many injuries you are going to sustain, you don’t know when the trauma is going to end, and you don’t even know if you are going to live through it. The event is nothing but terror from start to finish. It may haunt you for years to come. It may even interfere with or inhibit your ability to sustain intimate relationships (at least for a while).

In contrast, insistent sex with someone you love and trust is like a tandem sky dive. He knows where he is taking you. You trust him to get you there safely. He’s going to pull that rip cord in time. The entire experience is exhilarating, tinged with fear and but part of an exercise in yielding trust. It builds on the depth of emotion, it does not leave permanent scars.

In respect to all the women who have been victims of sexual assault, I think the fantasy of rape needs a new label.

I am new here but I thought I’d jump right in.

;-)

Maddy

An anonymous reader wrote:

No one in their Right Mind wants this. A therapist might be able to help you figure out where this self hatred originated. I'm sorry but this is not healthy and you people need help.

Spending an hour a week wallowing in your childhood traumas with a therapist who disapproves of your sexual fantasies, and paying a lot of money for it.

Keeping your sexual fantasies to yourself throughout your marriage, trying very hard and unsuccessfully to be turned on by "normal sex," making sex dull and boring for yourself and your partner.

Never sharing your true self with your partner, so he can never really know you.

Telling yourself over and over again that you're a pervert, that you shouldn't be what you obviously are, that what you feel is bad and wrong. Telling yourself that you're insane, that no one in their Right Mind would be like you.

Many of us know from experience what these self-hating behaviors can do to a marriage, because they are also barriers to happiness, good sex, and intimacy.

Self-loving behaviors:

Accepting your sexual nature fully, telling yourself that your fantasies are good and normal, sharing them with your partner.

Being happy, turned on, and open is also a gift to your partner. He will be happier, more turned on, and more open because you are.

Melanie

Anon,

Thanks for replying to my question.

From your two posts, it looks like that you've maybe read a lot of what's been said in this and other threads with standard-issue society blinkers. And that is understandable, to be honest. A lot of what is talked about on here would be seen as repressive at best, abuse at worst.

The original article, and many of the replies, are about women wanting to be taken by force by the man they love. It's partly going into that quite hard to properly explain area of consensual non-consent - where the woman effectively say to the man "I trust you to do whatever you like to/with me because I know you value me and us enough not to do anything that will jeopardise our relationship". And the boss rightly pointed out that this is something that should be discussed and understood first. Initial reactions to the fantasy tend to run along the lines you've stated, even if the man has harboured the matching fantasy (of taking his woman by force). We don't want to be mistreated, just treated forcefully and maybe roughly.

As Melanie said:

Women here are clearly saying that they crave a sexual encounter where they have no control. But the one thing they do want to control is WHO can do this to them. While the WHO in a fantasy might be a stranger, in a real-life encounter, the WHO must be someone you trust who knows what you want.

--

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Hamlet, somewhere.

I don't have a problem with your article insofar as it goes but why's it always the ladies that gets to be raped this way? What about the blokes? Me and my mates are well up for being forcefully raped but we never get a look-in. Why's it ok for ladies but not lads? Why's it one rule for the ladies and another for the blokes? Why's it always the woman that gets to be the one being 'used and abused' and 'roughed up' this way? If the wife would rape me once in a while I'd happily do my bit for her in return but I can just see the look on her face if I was to suggest it. I'd be eating dinner in the doghouse. Mind you, I'd probably be eating dinner in the doghouse if I was to suggest raping her too as she's nothing like the women on this site but I reckon if she wanted any hardcore sex it would be what you talk about in your article not doing me that way. I read your other article for partner that aren't getting enough sex - sad or what? But I tried that and she didn't even notice. I have to practically rape her to get any and it's been this way for so long I don't remember how long.

Dave

Dave, you might like to read this reply I posted, in which I said:

Where has this wild assumption that we are too sexually repressed not to want to take a man by force on occasion come from? Again, whilst it may well be true of some women, it is an entirely unwarranted assumption to make here.

OK, rape is wrong. And if it's consensual, it isn't rape. What's being discussed here is forceful, violent sex for mutual pleasure, regardless of the semantics involved in the description. It's being described as rape and as a fantasy to be explored.

You think that this is wrong, probably because you don't understand the dynamics involved. I admit I don't fully understand it myself, but one thing I do understand; in an intimate relationship, discussion of fantasies, no matter how wild they may be, is essential.

What is wrong is not communicating. What is wrong is not trusting your SO enough to bare your inner core. What is wrong is hiding yourself and your desires, making the relationship into a shallow mockery.

KrosRogue

At the risk of bursting your bubble, I've got news for you: wanting violant criminal acts to be perpetrated against yourself could get you committed in an institution. It's not normal, and the blending of fantasy with real violence is not only sick, it's dangerous too. You're a man, KrosRog, you know how hard it can be to figure out what a woman wants. Asking a Man to rape you could lead to you getting taken against your Real Will, ie raped. This is a dangerous game these women are playing, and if you allow yourself to be sucked into it you'll be looking at a cell wall for years to come.

This is a dangerous game these women are playing, and if you allow yourself to be sucked into it you'll be looking at a cell wall for years to come.

The UNEXCUSEABLE misfortune is the main thrust of what I wrote. The lack of intimate discussion between a man and his wife is tragic, and that disease is widespread. There should be no subject that can't be discussed in what should be the closest relationship any person on the face of this earth can have. I think the lack of communication is also a very dangerous game, one that can have devastating results rivalling the ones you describe.

KrosRogue

It's interesting to read the comments from those women who say they've been raped and that it was a sexual experience. I've read that many women develop rape fantasies after being raped - is this what we're seeing here? To those women who describe their experience of rape as being positive or not wholly negative - could it be that you were raped before that and you developed rape fantasies and some kind of affinity for it after being raped? It's an interesting question why this happens if it does and there's additionally the question of what is the cause of one woman deriving pleasujre from the act of rape while most bear the psychological scars for a long while. It's great to see so much mature discussion on a topic like this.

Kev

I have never met any woman who has in any sense enjoyed being raped by a stranger. However, I think there have been several comments on this thread from several women saying that they have experienced rape by a husband or boyfriend as a sexual experience. See, for example, this comment and the reply by Desire. Of course it can't be at all a positive experience if you fear for your life, as is often the case in rape (including when the rapist is your husband), but if you don't feel unsafe, it can be for some women.

This is a reflection on the strength of the women and in no way exculpates the men who have done this.

Hello

I don't share the condemnation expressed by Ramileous and to a lesser extent, others, of rape fantasies. I am a man, and I cannot see anything wrong with a woman having rape fantasies.

I have lately more and more been coming to the view that experience is what you make of it. I know it's hard to stretch that to cover everything, but I feel you are to be congratulated in admitting, and therefore in a way sanctifying, your rape experience: you weren't traumatized, but enriched. Was rape really a gift for you? It seems like it. Life has its dark sides and they have to be accepted: by accepting them it seems we turn them to good account. I'm glad for you that you had that most intense sexual experience, and drew the acceptance of it out of what for most would have been a tragedy.

Many spiritual teachers teach us that every experience is ‘good’ for us, even sought for by some deep part of our being. I have no difficulty with that. If God is omnipotent, as Christians and others like to say, then He would have no difficulty in preventing these ‘evil’ acts of rape or whatever if that was His wish. Nothing happens that is not His will: it cannot be otherwise.

I should say that I have no desire to rape my wife, and I don't know if she desires it;probably not, since she's always willing for sex. However I would love to give her a good whipping – with her consent, of course!

I feel that I really understand those women who want to be ‘raped’, taken against their will, depite their utmost resistance, and see nothing contradictory about that.
I am putting this on the Taken In Hand site, but want to send it to you privately too in token of your bravery in giving out you email address.

Malcolm

So what do people do when one partner reveals a desire that is very important to them, and it turns the other one off? Living without seems awful, but doing things you find repulsive is awful, too.

Melanie

To imply that anyone in a "consensual" relationship would not agree ahead of time to a safe word when it comes to fantasy play, is a grave misinterruptation of the relationship iteself. This alone is an answer to your question of a "safe word" being needed. So, you are sadly in the dark when it comes to how a true bond works and evolves between a loving couple. Obviously you are not "mature", despite your age. Please take a step back and re-examine how your input distorts and misleads the many who enjoy the open and honest exchange of ideas in this site.
Your "be safe, sane, and consensual" remark at the end of your response is all too familiar.

A very pleased participant in this lifestyle CHOICE

SQ

First of all, I want to say that I'm, well, surprised to have found this place, and a little glad. My girlfriend told me recently that she thought about rape fantasy. Since this relationship is relatively young, and it happened to be the night before she went back to New England (I'm down on Long Island), we did not act upon it. But I felt the need to better educate myself on the topic, and lo and behold I found this site. So I suppose I owe a debt of gratitude to the boss and the rest of the posters here.

That said...

Name Withheld wrote:

"If more men knew how most women feel about this they might do what Dan did for Amber. It's an ache inside, a piece missing. I long to share that kind of passion with my husband, instead, we're comfortable and nice and we make love... why is raw unvarnished sex so verboten? When are we going to drop the masks, drop the pretences, and do it how we want?

How can it be wrong to give a woman what she wants with all her being? How can it be an evil act or not consensual? Why are people so quick to judge others?"

-----------------------

Hmm, where to begin? I suppose I'll start by saying that I'm slightly more defensive in terms of male stereotypes than most, but I've gotten better over the years. I don't take offense quite as fast as I once did. However, this comment really grabbed my attention. As others in this thread have done before, I'm going to use the "think about it from the other side of the fence" technique.

Hypothetical guy Joe has fantasies. Great, we all do. One of his fantasies is to have sex with his girlfriend while, say, she is covered in tobasco sauce and has a spiked collar on. Certainly not something you normally hear about, but where is the harm, right? He really, REALLY wants to do this. It gets him really aroused to think about. It actually causes him some pain inside, an "ache" when he thinks about this unfulfilled fantasy.

But his girlfriend is uncomfortable with the idea. For whatever reasons, perhaps objectification, perhaps the physical sensations involved, perhaps just because she hates the smell of tobasco sauce, she doesn't like the idea. She doesn't find it erotic, and she would feel uncomfortable if she were to acquiesce to Joe's request.

Is it wrong of her to deny his request? Is she "hiding behind a mask" by saying no, because she really wants to do it? Is she not a real WOMAN because she won't give her man what he wants in this case? Does she not have the proverbial "balls"?

Also, "do it how we want"?

...excuse me? How do you know how I want to make love? If you DO know, then you'd better get a patent on that mind reader of yours right away!

These are things that your post suggests, Name Withheld. While I recognize that consensual lovemaking with the trappings of forced sex can, if properly approached, be a fine thing, it has to be CONSENSUAL. EVERYONE on this site seems to have a good grasp of that statement, but I think many are overlooking part of the implication.

Consent means that a person is willing, and it seems that in this topic that the person WANTS, to go through with the act. You seem to be so hung up on establishing that the woman wants this Consensual Act of Forced Lovemaking (tm) - hereafter knowns as CAFL, which I'll use instead of the term "rape" since that seems to be a HUGE part of the disagreements on this topic! - that you are overlooking whether or not the man wants to act this out. I'm sure that the majority of men ARE afraid of the implications of acting out a CAFL fantasy, for a number of (sensible) reasons. But as we've established previously, it's simply a matter of taste. Some women DO fantasize about it, and some don't. Some abhor the idea, and some don't find it erotic at all.

Why can the same not be true of men? Perhaps they simply cannot conceive of a CAFL as erotic, arousing, romantic, loving, or any of the other things you profess it capable of being.

I'm not saying these fantasies are wrong to have, not at all. Hell, my own girlfriend apparently has them! What I'm trying to say is that it is not wrong NOT to have them, or to feel uncomfortable going along with them. Please do not say or imply that men who will not fulfill CAFL fantasies are somehow less than those who will.

I have more to say on the topic, and while I haven't read this entire thread (it is LONG!), I'm going to break it up into another post because it is a different topic.

~ Story

Yes, the man has to want it too, or at least find it reasonably tolerable. We should not expect our partners to engage in sexual practices that are repulsive or highly uncomfortable for them. I don't think my husband would be able to act out a realistic CAFL - I think he would be completely turned off by the appearance of nonconsent. Possibly he could push through this if I really wanted it and begged him for it, but we'll never know because I don't want it.

I've known several men who said they were completely turned off by any reluctance on the woman's part. Other men have told me they couldn't bring themselves to spank a woman no matter how much she wanted it. And I know there are fantasies that I couldn't tolerate either. Any kind of bondage sends me into a complete panic.

Melanie

Great post, Story! Looking forward to many future posts from you. Real interesting! Curious to know what more you have to say on this topic. Do tell!

Reesa

Interesting comments but that's not what i got from the post you were replying to. I thought they were talking about the case where guys are uncomfortable because they think it's wrong, not other reasons. If guys think it's wrong because "rape" isn't consensual, and they feel uncomfortable for that reason, then if the girls explain it is consensual, then the guys can see it's not wrong and might then be OK with doing it.

Well, interpretations are one of the demons of the Internet, given the nature of the text-based medium of communication ;)

With regards to the latter part of your comment, I would point out that, at least by my interpretation, alot of the women here claiming to have or recognize this fantasy say that the setup cheapens it...that "staging" the scenario makes it lose its charm. I think that the same "special element" that makes it really work for these women can be the very thing that makes it really not work some men. It's the authenticity; some part of it has to be real, or realistic, for the erotic quality to persist (or so I have come to understand from reading this thread). That authenticity will forever cause certain [types of] men to have lingering doubts or feelings of disgust toward their own actions.

In the end...this fantasy is probably no different from any other, except in terms of the sociopolitical ramifications it carries. Some people will find it erotic, and some won't. Some will be able to fake it for the sake of their lovers...and some won't.

~ Story

Does the control have to be rape for your girlfriend or is it control that does it for her and rape is one example of that?

I don't think it HAS to be. I think there is something positive in more subtle expressions of control for her as well. There was an instance where she wasn't allowed to move or open her eyes unless I said she could. She said she enjoyed that. She also says she always prefers to be on the bottom. I know that there is a little more complexity to the situation than "top=dominant, bottom=submissive", but I'm sure there is some sort of link.

I'm into intensity, "in extremis", being on the edge, etc. If this is part of what attracts her to rape/CAFL, you could use that fact to find ways of having sex that both of you like.

Good question. I suppose I'll have to find out! We set a date for her next visit, and it isn't terribly far away, so I guess I'll know soon enough.

What are you Story into? You haven't said much about that. What are your sexual fantasies? What turns you on? Is there potential common ground there?

Ugh...this is going to sound like such a cop-out...

What turns me on is seeing her turned on. It could be any number of little things, or something more overt. The first time we had sex (after no small amount of awkward experimentation - we were both virgins before that night), when we found something that worked, I could hear her ragged breathing. I could see her hands clutching convulsively at the sheets or the edge of the bed. THAT was erotic for me.

So in a way...anything that doesn't expressly kill the mood for me could be considered common ground, I suppose. I know how corny that sounds, but it's the honest truth. I read the reaction I get out of her, and my own body just...responds in kind! It's one of the reasons I'm so avid about finding a way through this little challenge; the faster and better I am at being able to arouse her, the better it will be for myself.

I hope that answers at least some of your questions!

~ Story

P.S. The new Ghost in the Shell series, Standalone Complex, was awesome! I highly recommend.

OK... here's another question for you, Story: what is it about CAFL that kills the mood for you?

Well, allow me to reiterate something from a previous post of mine:

I think that the same "special element" that makes it really work for these women can be the very thing that makes it really not work for some men...Some people will find it erotic, and some won't. Some will be able to fake it for the sake of their lovers...and some won't.

It has everything to do with it, because in the end, real rape is what is being simulated. For some people (myself included), it isn't simply a matter of flipping a switch and detaching the real-world implications of a fantasy from the fantasy itself.

Let's take a look at another example. I abhor murder; understood easily enough. Now, if someone wants me to act out several realistic scenes in which I murder small children for fun, would you expect me to go along with this? We're not talking about a movie here, we're talking about someone wanting me to act something out because it will invoke some sort of positive reaction in him or her. This person finds something tasteful in an act that I find completely unacceptable. Even with the knowledge that it is staged, should I really be comfortable with this?

Now I'm not equating CAFL fantasies with killing small children...please don't say that I am. I suppose I am equating real rape with such a crime, at least in the sense of my own personal reactions to each.

I guess the point is, it will always be in my mind that I am acting out something that I consider to be a vile and utterly inhumane crime, even if it is just acting. That feeling is internal on my part, no matter what. Reading a reaction that comes from my girlfriend in response to this act is going to be inherently external. Guess which one will have higher priority?

One more point to address:

If what turns you on is seeing her turned on, one possible way you could go with this would be if you began to "read the reaction you get out of her" different - like, if you started reading her reactions in rape/CAFL more accurately - seeing how turned on she is by it etc - then it might start turning you on instead of killing the mood.

This isn't meant to be an attack, but I believe you have some fundamental flaws in your argument here. First, there's a difference between reading the reaction I get out of her differently, and reading her reaction accurately. I've never actually acted out a CAFL fantasy with her, so I haven't had the opportunity to read her reaction in such a situation. Second, it wouldn't matter. See previous paragraph about internal/external reactions.

I don't think I'm ever really going to be able to do the CAFL thing. Control in other forms? Sure. I suppose, that's what I'm looking for. Either way, I really appreciate the feedback I'm getting here =)

~ Story

I need better post headings, don't I?

I'd like to know what others think of the whole thing...

...because it doesn't feel like it's acting out a real rape to me, it feels like an intense consensual experience.

If you 'rape' her like she wants, I don't reckon she'll look fearful or nonconsenting.

Are you saying that you could never under any circumstances do anything sexually that would even allude to nonconsent?

I don't think it is THAT severe. Critical threshold, remember? ;)

Like, are you saying you'd never want to hold her hands when you're making love, in a way hinting at nonconsent?

You mean like pinning her wrists to the bed with my own hands? Nah, that doesn't bother me. In fact, we did that once. Wasn't a problem. Speaking of which...

Or you'd never want to take a silk ribbon and loosely tie her?

...we did that too! Well, we used a hair scrunchee, since that's all that was available at the time, but it's similar enough, no?

Like, you'd always find the mood was killed if she, under you in the missionary position, seemed to wriggle/writhe in a manner hinting at nonconsent?

Interesting question. And honestly, I think it would. As soon as I start to pick up signals that I interpret as "bad", my immediate reaction is to stop. Perhaps that reaction is a little too severe...quick anecdotal example.

Our first time, once we got into a rhythm that seemed to be working for her, she made sounds from time to time. You know, back-of-the-throat or short-ragged-gasp or flightly-moaning sounds? Well, half the time I couldn't tell if the she was expressing pleasure or pain, and if I felt unsure I would stop and ask if she was alright. Just about every time, she said she was fine, that it didn't hurt.

Okay...I just re-read that. That reaction was PROBABLY too severe.

Would that be so even if she seemed to be deriving a lot of pleasure from the lovemaking?

Again, to be honest, I'm having trouble reconciling the vision of her both fighting and appearing to enjoy it. I think I would need first hand experience to tell how I would react to that. I guess that brings us back to the root of the problem, no?

Another way to go would be to question the idea of requiring explicit consent.

Er, under no circumstances whatsoever would I even consider something like this without prior explicit consent. Of that I am sure.

I'm aware you're wanting help with control examples - have you done a search on this Website for the word "control" and checked out the examples given here? There's a wealth of material here.

Not yet. I've read a number of the Tour articles, and this one; that's about it. I haven't had a whole lot of time, but I suppose I should try and find it somewhere.

Thanks again for the feedback. I wonder if anyone else has some input?

~ Story

Story, is it that you question whether the enjoyment she would get is real - you don't believe her that she would enjoy it? - or what is it that's interfering? It looks like you have severely hampering responses - would you yourself enjoy the feeling of being out of control, controlled, maybe forced in a rape fantasy or "CAFL" way? Maybe you need to explore the idea of being forced before you can enjoy forcing. Good luck, Story.

-- Jasmine

Oops, missed something I wanted to address!

It looks like you have severely hampering responses

Well...yes. Some, anyway.

would you yourself enjoy the feeling of being out of control, controlled

I have no past experience to base a definitive answer on, but my gut reaction is "No". I really don't think that would enhance anything for me at all.

maybe forced in a rape fantasy or "CAFL" way?

DEFINITELY not. I can accept that other people might have this fantasy, even if I don't really understand it. But I KNOW that I myself don't want it.

Maybe you need to explore the idea of being forced before you can enjoy forcing.

I see where you're coming from there, but knowing what I know about myself, I just know that that isn't the case.

Good luck, Story.

Thanks!

~ Story

What you describe is not rape. It is a fantasy played out. Rape does not involve pre arranged consent. Can you explain why you use that terminology and what is the "gift" this fantasy gives you ?

Thanks.

Fantasy is one thing, but I assure you that the reality of rape is horrific. I certainly hope that there is not a potential rapist out there, reading your comments, who is 'sparked' to enact his 'fantasies' in real life (ie. without consent).

First I'll respond to the boss as far as her article being specifically helpful to broach the topic with my husband; Yes your article and the discussion it created does give some ideas and make it more plausable, and I thank you because I am one of those women who has always fantasized about being really forced after putting up a struggle. Sure it's alittle odd to admit but it's true (come on girls).

The way I see it, it's not so hard to understand and we shouldn't feel ashamed or threatened as long as we're talking about the man you love.

First, I think the desire of most women quite naturally includes that overpowered scenario for many complex reasons. For example: being so desired he's out of control; knowing it's "not your fault" or decision, the way it heightens the shear pleasure of being dominated through penetration.

Second, again I thought it was clear the boss is talking about a husband or boyfriend you're in love with. That's a necessary given or it's obviously an ugly crime. Likewise, I think actual physical harm like hitting, sprains, cuts, dislocations etc is obviously over the line but most men are probably capable of "taking" their woman without physical injury. Perhaps not unlike how we can be spanked and have it hurt and make us angry as hell at the time (if it's a real one where he dosen't stop til some point is made) but we're not actually injured.

So put the desire together with the man you love and I think it's possible to imagine an occassion where you don't expect it plus it's at a bad or inconvenient time for you, you say NO and he says, Oh really? think again honey.... and while you put up a struggle his greater physical strength subdues you into some position and short of doing something ugly to stop him (which you wouldn't even consider with the man you love) you're gettin it like it or not. Not an every day event but something many of us women want to experience. And I suspect however wrong the timing for the woman and however angry she is at having her arms pinned and worse, coming from the man she loves, any woman is gonna end up LOVING IT once her man gets to her; and probably more than ever for those very reasons that make us women.

I will agree there's a problem with the word "rape" and for obvious reasons. But I give the boss the benefit of the doubt that she uses it only to make the point in bold fashion.

Trisha
Weymouth, MA

As far as the rape thing goes, I find it pretty baffling myself, rape doesn't do anything for me at all. But clearly, judging by the enormous response to this article, it does do something for an awful lot of women. Saying that any woman who wants this needs to get help is implying that a hell of a lot of women need this 'help'. But what turns you on is what turns you on, and no amount of 'help' can affect that. I always thought that my own fantasies were pretty bizarre, and periodically used to try and suppress them, but you really can't you know, you're stuck with them, like it or not. I have no idea why any woman would fantasies about being raped, but I imagine most normal people would feel the same about my fantasies. You can't cure people of their sexual desires. Don't let it bother you. Try and adopt the philosophy of the immortal Mrs Patrick Campbell, you know "I don't care what people do as long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses."

I like making love to my husband, and it is great but after 10 years with the same man some new material is in order, lighten up, be open minded, perhaps not to this extreme but if you think that a man and a woman allways make love you are mistaken, sometimes there's just hard sex.

I totally agree with you, and as a woman, I do have fantasies but that is where it ends because we do live in a society where you could end up in a lot of trouble for those kind of actions. But it is still okay to fantasize.

I kinda doubt what are usually called "rape" fantasies are about rape, but rather about just being taken by the fantasizer's chosen lover.

We're always in complete control of everything that goes on in our fantasies. I would think that when a woman fantasizes about being possessed without being asked for her, uh, input (sorry) in the matter, she's in complete control of her desire to surrender control to her lover. I would think that after all is said and done, as long as it's her fantasy, her choice to submit, then she's in control.

It's not the fantasy, it's the word. "Rape" is a very emotionally charged word which means it can arouse powerful emotions even as it can mean different things in different contexts.

Nobody's advocating rape. Nobody's suggesting that it is anything but attempted soul murder when a man forces himself on a woman. But the word itself can sometimes light the fuse to passion in a relationship.

I think one of a man's greatest joys in a relationship is to ferret out his lover's deepest and most compelling desires. Our reward comes when we tap into them and convince her it's safe to express them with us. Who cares what words are attached to them? It's the feeling that counts.

Whew! This was indeed a very informative thread. I am grateful to everyone's input regarding this issue. I have learned a lot!

Myself, I have never really thought of the idea being raped, but I have liked the idea of consentually letting a man TAKE OVER the situation. That to me is a rush. I know if it were with someone I trusted and I felt it was getting to be "too much" and I used a word or something to stop it.. he would. It's the feeling of him TAKING OVER is what I like. :)
Caleigh

Here here!

...and idly wondering if the previous commenter (and those who've left similar comments) actually took the time to read (and maybe even try to understand) the article?

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"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Hamlet, somewhere.

Sometimes I fantasize about spreading my arms wide and flying like a bird; about soaring above the clouds and breathing air untouched by humans.

Then I open my eyes and look down at my single arm, with two fingers attached to where my elbow should be.

Guess fantasizing about that, about something that I will never do in real life, makes ME a sick woman, too. Please let me know who YOUR psychiatrist is, and I will "get some help".

Brilliant, the boss - utterly brilliant ;)

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"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Hamlet, somewhere.

somebody writes:
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I am a new reader, and have been following the "rape" controversy with a great deal of amusement.
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Yeah, rape... what a chucklefest.

somebody continues:
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People, this is a fantasy. If you like/agree with it, that is your choice. If you dislike/disagree with it, ditto.
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This is not a fantasy. Discussions like this, with headlines from women saying "I crave rape," are throwing fuel on the subconscious fire of men's fantasies to rape women.

It's progressive: first a man role-plays a rape with his girlfriend or wife, consensually. But then that's not enough. She doesn't resist enough. His tolerance has gone up, like a drug addict's, and he needs to see that true look of terror in a woman's eyes to get hard. There's nothing like true terror to make her clench up tight, eh, boys?

The headline of this thread is sensational and incendiary. Not everyone is as educated, liberated or enlightened as you smarmy pro-rape schmucks think you are. There are lurkers here, stroking off to this discussion, maybe looking at your sister jogging down the street.

If rape is a gift, my benefactor neglected to enclose the receipt so I could exchange my gift for another size.

Anyone who wants to see the police photos, respond.

I think I've already said this, but people who are inclined to rape, murder, assualt, whatever, will find their justification for it. If the article here had never been posted, there's plenty of similar stuff if you know where to look (hint: try Nancy Friday's anthologies of women's fantasies (and other similar books) - easily available from your local High Street book store. One of Iain Banks' non sci-fi novels includes a rape fantasy, too.). If all else fails, they've always got the voices-in-their-heads option.

Yes, some people reading this thread might get entirely the wrong idea. Most people will be able to read and understand the basic idea, even if they vehemently disagree with it. And, of course, some people will read the title and go no further before exploding in a shower of righteous anger.

This is not a fantasy. Discussions like this, with headlines from women saying "I crave rape," are throwing fuel on the subconscious fire of men's fantasies to rape women. It's progressive: first a man role-plays a rape with his girlfriend or wife, consensually. But then that's not enough.

Requoting this bit:

Discussions like this, with headlines from women saying "I crave rape," are throwing fuel on the subconscious fire of men's fantasies to rape women

One bad experience does not mean everyone of that ilk is the same - and rape has to count as a pretty horrific experience. But not all men are rapists, the same as not all school caretakers are murderers and so on.

Fantasies and secret desires happen. It often seems that we have no control over them, and it feels shameful and "wrong" enough to have them without being told we're wrong to discuss them. They need to be talked about, understood and accepted so that if a woman who does have those desires is unfortunate enough to get raped she doesn't feel like she somehow deserved it because of her fantasies.

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"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Hamlet, somewhere.

Do you know your post is being discussed on other sites? This guy's not too impressed. He says there's not one page on Taken In Hand that isn't disturbing.

In reply, another guy quotes your:

Do not proceed in haste. Be sure to discuss it thoroughly first, to ensure that, as one woman put it, you are on the same page. . . . When in doubt, discuss it explicitly and in great detail first. And assume that the two of you might be mistaken about it all, and be ready to backtrack, make changes, and (if you both desire it) try again.

These people are truly monsters! How dare they discuss their sexual fantasies and desires? They should be content with occasionally having missionary-position intercourse with the lights out. Solely for purposes of procreation, of course.

(For what it's worth, the ex- once expressed doubt as to whether it was really possible to forcibly have intercourse with someone who actively resisted. I insisted that it certainly was possible. She dared me to prove it. I did. We both agreed later it was kind of fun, but not something we were interested in trying again.)

Ok most of the comments on here in support of the boss have been by women while the men are not. So I wanted to post because my wife and I have this sort of sex regularly. When we have sex it often becomes so rough that she is fighting to endure and I am holding her down. Somewhere it does become very much like rape because she is no longer in control. And guess what as soon as it is over she smiles and kisses me and tells me how great it was. So, guys, some women really do enjoy being forced.