You said:

I don't think its normal for a woman to fantasize about rape. Maybe it's normal for women who enjoy evil, but good women do not fantasize about rape. The studies that suggest many women fantasize of being raped just shows how generations of immorality has twisted the minds of women.

I'm sorry to tell you this but many women DO fantasise about rape - in fact it's probably the most common female fantasy there is! I find your comments that "good" women don't enjoy these sorts of fantasies, (only "evil" women) frankly, insulting. I consider myself to be "good" - I'm a good and loving mother, a loving, caring wife and I certainly don't go around being "evil"!!

You also say:

You have to be a very disturbed or misguided individual to want to even role-play Rape

Reading through this thread, I would say that the posts show some very coherent and mature responses. I haven't seen one that made me think "uh-oh" nutter alert!" - certainly nothing that made me think any of these people are "disturbed" and "misguided".

And...

How would it sound if I (a man) said; I fantasize about raping a woman. Pretty disgusting and disturbing, isn't it?

I would say that if you were the type of guy who got a kick out of attacking some defenceless woman on her way home, beating the sh!t out of her and raping her then, yes, I would be disturbed and disgusted. If your the type of guy that, whilst in the context of a long term and loving relationship, had the balls to share his fantasies (whatever they were!) then I wouldn't think you were disgusting or disturbing.

I'm sorry, but "me feel you doth protest too much". Tossing comments around that people who have "rape" fantasies are "misguided", "evil" or "disgusting" just suggests to me someone who in fact DOESN'T think these things at all! Just someone who is ashamed of what they DO feel.

Of course I could be wrong and I apologise in advance if I am. I understand that, for example, some deeply religious people would view this as being disgusting and "dirty". However, you can't go around calling people evil, disgusting and misguided just because they have views that don't fit in with yours.

I was really disapointed to read this article.

I have been raped. Legally, rape is penetration without consent. My experience involved being knifed too. I don't think you have any comprehension about the "type of woman" would be rapists prey on or of what is involved in the act. I was informed by the police that I wasn't a "normal" victim. I'm tall and confident, I look the type to fight back and probably in the absence of a rather large chef's knife, would have. Fat lot of good not being the "normal" victim did me though.

Rape is not a sexual act. It is an act of the purest form of abuse and violence. By its definition, it is non-consensual, you can't want it.

Lots of women, me included, have fantasies about rough sex, being taken by surprise by the man they love. No woman in her right mind wants to be put through the experience of rape.

Your article lets you down.

Honeybee

I'm willing to bet that men have as many rape fantasies as women. But for obvious reasons, it's easier for women to talk about it. The woman is the victim, so her consent makes it okay, changes something that would be a horrible violation into wild sex. The man is the perpetrator, so his consent makes no difference. What man would want to even hint at rape fantasies to his woman? I would think that, even if she were turned on by the idea, she might rather have a man who had to be persuaded than a man who was instantly enthusiastic.

That said, I think that in a trusting relationship, a man should be able to admit to fantasizing about things that would be immoral in real life. I firmly believe that we do not choose what turns us on sexually. For me, my fantasies were there as early as I can remember - they were there before they were sexual. I can't choose to think about, say, having sex in a daisy field, to bring myself to orgasm. It just doesn't work.

All those horrible things that Ram said about women with rape fantasies, I used to say about myself because I fantasized about spanking. For most of my life, I did not accept my sexuality fully, and this frankly pisses me off. I don't want others to live like that. I want everyone to fully accept themselves and find sexual fulfillment.

Of course, not by acting out fantasies that would hurt other people. If you fantasize about something immoral or hurtful, then this must remain a fantasy. But you can act out, or talk about fantasies in a safe context with a willing partner, making married sex hotter and marriage more intimate. What's immoral about that?

Melanie
(writing in haste - hope I made myself clear)

Dear Honeybee,

I am so sorry you suffered such a terrible attack. I too have been raped, and the worst thing about it – worse than the agonising pain of it – was the abject terror that I was going to be killed. I did not write “type of woman” and I regard the idea that there is a “type of woman” as an egregious and disgusting attempt to exculpate real rapists.

Perhaps calling what I am talking about “rape” is a mistake. If the language one uses is such that it obscures one's meaning, one is undoubtedly using the wrong words. However, language is not always easy to get right, and what I was trying to do – and perhaps I failed – was to use a very powerful short-cut way of expressing what could otherwise have taken many sentences and would have been very clumsy. I did consider talking about being TAKEN instead, because that word almost covers it, and perhaps I should have persevered in that effort, but I thought, rightly or wrongly, that if I made it clear upfront that I was not talking about rape in the legal sense, my meaning would be clear.

Once again, Honeybee, I am sorry you found my article offensive, and as one who has experienced real rape by a stranger, I can assure you, I meant what I said about not condoning rape. It was the experience of being raped (and also another attempted rape by another stranger on the street) that propelled me to become more able to defend myself the next time it happened. One thing I had not realised until it happened to me was that it is easy to think you will bravely fight the man off, but when it actually happens, you are so scared that you fail to take action that would save you. If any woman reading this would like further information in this regard, email me.

What I actually found offensive is the fact that he was suggesting that women who had these fantasies were "evil" and "immoral". I am neither of these things (whatever my sexual fantasies may involve!)and I (and I would imagine most women who have these sort of fantasies!) object to being labelled thus. You're right - real rape is evil and disgusting - but that's not what this guy was saying - he was saying it was evil and wrong to have "rape" fantasies.
-------------------------------------------

First of all, let me clearify right up front here, I disagree with this gentleman about the assumption that violent fantasy = evil woman.

My only question is, why do you consider this kind "claim to truth" to be so offensive (a claim to objective truth that woman bearing these kind of fantasies are necessarily evil),
yet you have no objection to equally outrageous claims to "truth" made in this site, such as the claim that woman might fight when raped but then she will eventually turn around to worship the rapist; or that woman actually wants rape?

Why oh why?

-sudolly

The point is that the boss is using the wrong word to describe her fantasy. I find it hard to believe women actually fantasize about being raped for real. Rape is destructive and immoral (a crime). If a woman wants a man (stranger or not) to just force her to have sex without consent, it is wrong in my opinion. It is disgusting to think if a man wants to force sex on a woman or damage her body. It is just as disgusting for a woman to want this. (A woman can fantasize about seeing a man rape another woman also, that is evil.)

These are evil thoughts to fantasize about being raped. I am not saying the woman is evil, rather I say she is toying with evil thoughts. It’s the truth, rape is evil, period. If a man or woman fantasize about rape, then they are playing into the hands of the devil, same as if a man or woman fantasize about murdering someone. A murderer is not evil, but he has done evil. A woman who fantasizes about rape is thinking of evil and it could lead to destructive behavior. Do you see what I mean?

I believe rape is the wrong word to use to describe what the boss and other women really fantasize about. These women want to be ravished and taken completely in deep, consensual, lustful sex with a partner. Sex that involves feeling the strength of a man overtake her, sweat and lots of friction between bodies. His passionate desire is so intense for her, and she desires it, she knows she is wanted and craves his attention. She may say no, but her body says yes and he senses it. When she sees her man respond to her bodies desire for him too, she craves him even more for the heat of passion. So, that is NOT rape, that is something done between two people who lust for each other. If its done in marriage then its ok and involves love, if its done outside of marriage it is wrong because it doesn’t involve love. (Love is not sex, love is taking responsibility, and caring for another person. Sex is meant to be a perfect union between people who love each other).

I am glad we are beginning to realize that using the word rape to describe a lustful fantasy is not appropriate.

While I have not had time to read all the responses, my immediate thought is what the boss describes as "Rape" is really about being "Taken".

Two vastly different concepts in my mind.

"Rape", by it's very definition is non-consensual. And worse, humiliation, degradation and violence is the goal.

To be "Taken" is consensual. It's a strong statement of love and possession. It's a physical way to to say "You are Mine!!!"

I must say, I am disturbed by the attempt to change the very definition of "Rape." Perhaps it wasn't intended, but it reads that way to me.

I think a lot of women who say they are dreaming about rape, are really wanting to be taken by the man they love.

The difference is night and day.

Lori

Ramileous, I really appreciate your comments. I do like people who say what they think.

Playing games without proper communication before hand can lead to trouble.

[This is] not something to do cavalierly. Extreme caution is advised. If you are not careful, your gift could be the psychological equivalent of a lethal letter bomb. Do not proceed in haste. Be sure to discuss it thoroughly first, to ensure that, as one woman put it, you are on the same page.

Ramileous wrote:

You have to be a very disturbed or misguided individual to want to even role-play rape. What an insult to women who have been actually raped, their lives altered by the brutal act of it.

It's also disrespect to the hundreds of thousands of men whose lives have been ruined by women who falsely accuse them of rape.

The justice system ruthlessly destroys men who are victims of the malice and revenge of bitter women.

Do the same women who fantasize about being raped, fantasize about falsely accusing a man of rape if the fantasy doesn't go quite as she planned or hoped?

No! If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. That is to say (to women): if you ask your man to do this, you had better be prepared to take responsibility in the event that it does not go as you would have wished. A man is not infallible and mistakes can and will happen. If you are not prepared to take responsibility for your own actions in asking him to do that, it would be wrong to ask this of him.

How would it sound if I (a man) said; I fantasize about raping a woman. Pretty disgusting and disturbing, isn't it? Or would you say it's ok for a woman to fantasize of rape but not ok for a man?

I really hope a couple has more dignity and morality to keep the bedroom a place to share fluids in the act of passionate, loving sex; not a place to fantasize about ripping genitals apart and shedding blood in the act of rape.

Ummm... did I say anything in such poor taste as that? I don't think so. And nor did I have anything like that in mind. And nor have any of the women I have spoken to about this. But I do appreciate your comments: it is very helpful criticism, for which I thank you (and everyone else).

If you want to have rough sex, feel free. But don't disrespect real victims by using the term "rape" as your fantasy. You do not fantasize of rape, you want to be dominated and ravished by a lover. These are two different things entirely. Rape is NEVER a gift, being taken by your man willingly is.

People need to stop saying they fantasize about being raped and admit they just want great sex.

I am against it precisely because it is against the woman's will - it lacks consent.

Reread my comment in a previous post, if a play partner spanked me without prearranged consent, even though I think I deserve a spanking (late report), I will still feel violated.

Even though I find cannibalism repulsive, if it is between consenting and otherwise mentally stable adults, I don't consider it wrong either.

Do we all agree self-determinism is important? Or would we prefer to revert to feudal, historical, dark ages? I am still working towards justifying my subjective and personal conviction that "freedom" (a myth, I concede) and self-determinism is important, but if I read your writings right (or at least half right), I think we at least agree on this.

BTW, as far as I can remember, I never said "rape is *wrong*." I am against promoting the idea, I support the legal persecution of it, I don't want it happen to me ever, I know plenty of women AND children hurt by it in the past, I work with women to learn to defend themselves against it. It is something undesirable to me, and something I would like my society to reach an agreement to not to condone. But if you want an "objective," analytical answer, I will concede, "rape is not inherently wrong," but I say this only because I consider "right" and "wrong" are arbitrary, culturally and historically dependent, and not universalisable. There is no such thing as "absolutely, objectively, universally and inherently wrong action," without a context, it is meaningless to discuss whether an act in itself is wrong. (read my signature!)

But if you want to play it that way, you can even argue that brutally raping a 5 year old little girl is "not wrong." Do we really want to get that philosophical?

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

Lori that was well written, thats the point I am trying to make. It seems some people forget what rape really is. I dont think the boss understands she cannot use the word rape to describe what she wants or is talking about for sex, they are two different things and its confusing the subject.

rape (against your will, destructively) and being taken (you want it, consent to it) are two different things entirely.

www.ramileous.com

(((the boss wrote-On the one hand, you seem to think that it is fine to take your woman in hand giving her a serious – painful-even – spanking – which to the casual observer might well appear to be against her will, but in fact, she has told you that this is what she wants (and possibly begged you to do it!) But on the other hand, you seem to be saying that it is evil to take your woman – which to the casual observer might well appear to be against her will, but in fact, she has told you that this is what she wants (and possibly begged you to do it!) Why? To me, these two situations are similar: they might appear non-consensual, but they are both very much consensual and there is no immorality involved.)))

spanking a wife has nothing in common with rape, please do not twist my words.
Spanking is a form of discipline meant to hurt but not damage. Rape is a selfish, careless act of taking from another, often destroying them.

Spanking is done out of love, to correct and discipline.

rape is done to take and destroy, not to give. Rape is usually done out of hatred or lack of respect. Think about all the women in world war two who were raped by soldiers who ravaged the enemy country. That is rape. Stop trying to make the word rape attractive by saying its the same thing as two people consenting to rough sex, ITS NOT THE SAME!!

Do you think a rapist cares whether or not the woman is enjoying herself? He doesnt, he wants something and cares less for her life.

People of today are so confused about what is moral and immoral, right and wrong, its why we have people asking "Is rape really wrong?" . A wife has to let the husband know she approves of him disciplining her through spanking (to avoid confusion). Then when the time comes he will use that method to discipline her. Its consensual though it may not be what she wants at the time she gets spanked. If a couple uses spanking for erotic foreplay that is their business. But they should not take for granted the importance of spanking for the act of authority and discipline.

(((Anonymous wrote--Well said the boss! This is exactly what I was thinking but hadn't got round to saying LOL! There's nothing else for me to add because you've said it all!)))

You guys dont realize that i am trying to draw a distinction between what is responsible and appropriate and what is not. Spanking to discipline is most likely appropriate if done out of love. Rape is never appropriate.

Ramileous wrote:

Lori that was well written, thats the point I am trying to make. It seems some people forget what rape really is. I dont think the boss understands she cannot use the word rape to describe what she wants or is talking about for sex, they are two different things and its confusing the subject.

rape (against your will, destructively) and being taken (you want it, consent to it) are two different things entirely.

If anyone would do me the honour of editing or rewriting my piece in a way that says the same thing without using the word “rape”, I'd be very grateful to receive your suggested revisions. I liked Lori's post too.

And I confess to have zero respect for a genocidal god, for a book that openly discriminates against homosexuals, condone and even rejoice at violence against innocent little children, promotes incest, and so on. Nor do I have much tolerance for any out-dated religious values that conflicts with humanism, mythology and folk lores is not good justification for inhumane treatment of your fellow human.

So what? This is probably the wrong place to debating secular humanism versus christianity.

FYI, I cannot think of any action that hasn't been right in one instance and wrong in another. The words in your shiny book was probably deemed as "right" at some point in history in some culture, but I certainly see it as inappropriate in my society nowadays. I am VERY glad that my society is not run by theocrats.

I support persecution of rapist because you can debate about the philosophy of morality all day and still come up with no answer. No, I don't believe morality is absolute, I don't think there exists any absolute moral code. But we still need a working set of code that reflects our social needs, values, and public opinion to live by.

Theoretical argument about nature of morality is fun and good mental exercise, but in the mean time, I need to live, and conflicts of personal will and interests still need to be resolved. I am all for persecution of many acts that threaten orders within my society.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

I think the one thing that has been established without a doubt here is that the boss's patience is indeed infinite (as noted above). As I demonstrated on a previous thread, mine is not. I would have given up ages ago. I told my husband about this thread, expressing frustration that so much of the controversy was due to misreading and misunderstanding. He laughed and said, "misunderstanding is a favorite hobby on the internet." Indeed.

There is genuine controversy here as well, and that has been very interesting. I just wish it didn't have to be obscured by so much garbage.

Melanie

I am sure the garbage melanie speaks of is partly my fault. I am glad the boss has patience to hear everyones opinion. However I have no patience when i see something so wrong as the message of "When rape is a gift" I just cant stand by idle and not try to point out the mistake of using the word rape in context with a womans desire to be taken by a man, metaphorically or not. I guess society has put it in our heads so much that women fantasize of rape, that we just accept thats reality. How sad, I am so sad to see this is what many women think, when so many innocent men sit in jail because a woman falsely accused him of raping her. Sad for the many women who were real victems of rape, who must shudder to think any woman could say she vaguely fantasizes of it.

I can only hope and pray that one day society wakes up and realizes how destructive the act and idea of rape is and it does not belong in the same context as fantasy.

Thanks the boss for bringing up subjects and letting us discuss and learn from them. Its ok to misunderstand and debate, its even better when we stick around and learn from each other.

Thanks Amber & Dan. You guys are GREAT! I'd love this type of experience too but it's not every man that will do it, my husband's not one of them. I'd never leave him but I have pain in my heart that he won't do this for me. If more men knew how most women feel about this they might do what Dan did for Amber. It's an ache inside, a piece missing. I long to share that kind of passion with my husband, instead, we're comfortable and nice and we make love... why is raw unvarnished sex so verboten? When are we going to drop the masks, drop the pretences, and do it how we want?

How can it be wrong to give a woman what she wants with all her being? How can it be an evil act or not consensual? Why are people so quick to judge others?

Thankyou for posting, Amber. You're a braver woman than me. You're right, Amber. Dan's a MAN, a man who's got the balls to give you what you want. What better gift could a man give a woman that what she wants? If you're a sicko perve, Amber, so am I.

Name Withheld

" Too many selfish women think men have to do what they say."

And too many selfish, patriarchal ego maniac "men" believe women somehow OUGHT to submit to men, as if women are inherently second class citizens.
-----------------------------
"Real men decide whats right and wrong, they dont feed into womens freedoms and fantasies like feminist robots."

Real women understands morality is situational and that any claim to KNOW so would be arrogant, close to playing God. They don't feed to the patriarchal oppression regimes and put up with subjugations like doormats.
-----------------------------
"Unfortunately too many men dont know whats right and wrong either."

Why would anybody expect them to? It's not like men are omniscience.
-----------------------------

"I hope some at least realize by now, if they read this thread, that rape fantasy is wrong."

I hope one day you realize, people are allowed to disagree with you, and you are not qualified to judge who is "more right."

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

OK, Ram, you've repeated over and over that taking a woman in this way's wrrong. It'd be good to hear your argument. So far, there hasn't been one. Let's hear it.

I, too, am curious about your "argument" Ram, hopefully it is beyond "because the holy book say so," because the bible also says there was once enough water to flood the entire world, that women are spare ribs that are made to entertain men, that the entire universe was created 5 days before the first man walked on earth, that God rejoices at bashing little children against rocks, that God punishes adults through killing of their children, and so on.

And if you insist, it appears that the holy book not only condones the use of drug to gang rape, but the man (Lot) was raped by none others but his own two daughters - that is to say, your God condones incestuous gang rape (Genesis 19:30-38). So I don't know why you are getting so high and almighty over others fantasy.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

"It was not my intention to insult anyone here or make it sound like I am better than anyone else. From the start I merely stated my opinion and gave my reasons. If you take what I say personally, I cannot help that, you shouldnt. I am only a man, i have my convictions and my opinion. "
-----------------------------
yes, yes, you expressed your opinion that your theological moral system is the only right system and everything else is rotten, down right immoral, non-sensical, and destructive to the world. I don't take what you say personally, you simply increased my conviction that Christains are self-righteous hypocrites who live to discriminate against people with different beliefs based on their arbitrary and unjustifiable, out-dated morality.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

The problem is that the word "rape" already has the context partially built into it - vigorous sex with clothes tearing and mutual use of violence is not necessarily rape, rape is NECESSARILY coercion of sex without consent.

Again, I restate, I have no problem with rape fantasy, I have no problem with enactment of rape scanerio or rape-like vigorous sex between consenting partners. But I take offense in making light of the hate-crime rape (sex without consent) by making claims that women want the real thing - not just fantasy, not just enactment, not just a game, but real rape.

But I think this has already been discussed, and the OP (the boss) also agreed that rape is not the best choice of word for what she is describing.

Otherwise, I agree with you. You can't take a snapshot of a moment and decide whether an action is good/bad/right/wrong. A person cries in her wedding and a person cries in a funeral. Same outward physical actions, but joy and grieve are completely different event/ experience.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

Sorry to disagree again, KrosRogue, I can only speak for myself. I have absolutely no qualms about violence, it's a part of my hobby (tournament fighting), lifestyle (martial arts training), and sexuality (spanking). I am not a pacifist and I am not afraid to use violence whenever I judge it to be appropriate, be it playful violence (sport), institutionalized violence (law enforcement), verbal violence (arguments), or physical, real violence (such as in self-defense).

The only reason I take issue with the OP is because of the problem of lack of consent. If you want to use "explosive word" to add spice to your sex life, it's not my business as long as you keep it between you and your partner. But to suggest online that women actually want REAL rape, (not fantasy of rape), and that it is ok to coerce sex on women without their consent and despite their resistance, is problematic.

For example, if you drug a woman then have sex with her without her consent, no explicit violence has been imposed on her, but it's still rape.

It boils down to consent, not violence.

-sudolly
-----------------------------
the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

It's interesting to note that after literally paragraphs of your preaching we suddenly have I dont think I will entertain the past few posts

No, I bet you won't, Ramileous. When confronted with Sudolly's questions about your God and with Amber's anger over your shoddy comments regarding her clearly wonderful husband, it's suddenly "erm... bye then...."

I've posted a couple of times on this thread and I just want to finish by saying that, like Amber, I have a lovely, wonderful husband who I can happily share my fantasies with – in fact it's required of me ;) – ‘rape’ included. He has (on a couple of occasions now) carried out ‘rape’ on me and I it was the most totally, mind blowing, out of this world sex I have EVER had. Nuff said! LOL.

I find it ironic when a very vocal and opinionated person claims to be a moral relativist. I also find it ironic when a person the same age as my daughter makes a proclamation about how much more mature her philosophical views are than mine.

JK

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting to note that after literally paragraphs of your preaching we suddenly have 'I don’t think I will entertain the past few posts'

Its not preaching, its my opinion, and I have argued my case about using the term “rape” in context with foolish fantasies.

Anonymous wrote:When confronted with Sudolly's questions about your God and with Amber's anger over your shoddy comments regarding her clearly wonderful husband, it's suddenly "erm... bye then...."

This thread is NOT about fielding questions about my faith, It is to discuss the issue of rape and fantasy. I wont be dragged into personal debate over my faith with suddoly .It is impossible to convince an angry person, especially one so hostile to Christians
I didnt say “erm bye then” Its obvious some of you are so against what I have said, and my reasoning, that you want to argue for the sake of anger, not to solve an issue, I wont be dragged into that. Amber felt free to mock men who don’t pander to womens whims, I turned the tables to make a point.

We all have fantasies, and we may have freedoms to exercise them, but that does not make them right nor acceptable to act out. I speak from experience, I have had inappropriate desires and fantasies before and through conviction I have come to understand that the good things in life are not always the right things in life

www.ramileous.com

When I spoke of "garbage," I was not referring to your posts. You understood what the boss meant, and expressed your disapproval of this kind of fantasy. I disagree with you rather strongly, but that's beside the point. You took the time to read and understand her before responding. What's really annoying me is the people saying that the boss is advocating nonconsensual rape, and then going on and on about how wrong it is, as if they only bothered to look at her subject line before responding. She's been very busy trying to straighten out people who went off half-cocked, and this gets in the way of a real discussion of her idea.

Melanie

"It is impossible to convince an angry person, especially one so hostile to Christians."

And the same can be said about angry, unreasonable christians hostile toward secular humanist feminist :-) Why do you expect me to put up with your bloody world view after you attacked mine is beyond me.

It's not my habit to passively accept aggression of any kind, if you don't want my hostility, you probably shouldn't initiate it.

-sudolly
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the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

Although I have read much of the archived articles and explanatory material, I am still unclear about how far off-topic one may acceptably go here.

I have a degree in theology and quite enjoy discussing religious and philosophical issues. There are a great many things that I would like to say to Sudolly at this point. The only clearly on topic one that comes to mind is that somebody really needs to take her in hand.

Just how much "thread drift" is considered appropriate?

JK

Forgot to mention you can contact me at uvicwebhotmail.com ^_^ I didn't realize my e-mail address is not visible to other users.

-sudolly
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the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

I hope this site still offers a safe place for people that share the same interest.

As a Christain myself i have had the opportunity to be offeneded by the so-called "Christian perspective" and the opinions that seem to feel it is as ok to bash this faith becasue of a few bad apples just like so many men are bashed because of a few bad apples.This makes me sad because i look forward to the intelligent writing brought forth by this site and its talented writers.

I say i have had the "opportunity to be offended" I choose to try and not be. There are all kinds of opinions out there.

Thank you Sara for this site which has pretty much maintained tolerance and openmindedness for the most part.I hope it will remain a safe place for all readers of all faiths. Are we not here because of a mutual shared interest?

Ash

Thank you for the clearification, I interpreted your comment as an accusation that I am somehow responsible for the confrontations here.

Like you, I find the idea of a submissive man to be unattractive. (This only apply within intimate relationship. At work/in school, they are welcome to be my doormats anytime :p) And I agree that it is easy to project your subjective world view outward to think "thats how things should be done."

Anyway, now you have me very curious. You said I reminded you of yourself when you were young, were you really ready to commit to submission at 23? I have been toying with the idea, but concluded that now is not the time. I enjoy enactment of submission, it's a refreshing break from my everyday needs to dominate (in order to strive in academia and at work, but it's also part of my temperament). But to fully submit, commit, and allow myself to be "Taken In Hand" at this point is just . . . unthinkable.

Besides, I don't want to submit to become a burden to my man; I submit so he can appreciate and make good use of my strength, my strong will, and my intellect. If I am as horrible as some of you seem to think I am, I like to get them fixed before I give my man a sore arm :-) [believe it or not, I am actually self reflexive.]

-sudolly, still pondering about LadyK's comment
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the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

I've read much that interests me on this web site but Sudolly's comments on this thread have not been among them. I am particularly disgusted by this comment of hers. It clearly shows how intolerant she is:

"Like you, I find the idea of a submissive man to be unattractive. (This only apply within intimate relationship. At work/in school, they are welcome to be my doormats anytime :p)"

As a sometimes sumissive man I take great acception to your comments Sudolly. Where's the respect for others?

"I am particularly disgusted by this comment of hers. It clearly shows how intolerant she is:

"Like you, I find the idea of a submissive man to be unattractive. (This only apply within intimate relationship. At work/in school, they are welcome to be my doormats anytime :p)" "
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Hmm, either you didn't see the tongue in cheek, or you didn't understand what that means.

And thank you for conveniently leaving out the part that says this is my subjective view. So, if I say I am not attracted to Asian men, I am also being intolerant? What if I say I am not attracted to blondes? What if I am not attracted to uneducated people? Now I am a major biggot, aren't I?

Sounds like you are intolerant towards my subjective preferences, shame on you :)

FYI, I have lots of submissive male friends, I am not in anyway sexually attracted to them, and I probably never will be, so what? Do I have to be sexually attracted to all traits to be "egalitarian?"
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"As a sometimes sumissive man I take great acception to your comments Sudolly. Where's the respect for others?"

I am very capable of acting respectful towards others when the reciprocal is practiced. However, you won't see my *respect* until you earned it. Who says I have to hand out respects like candies?

-sudolly
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the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

"Get over it people and move on. Thats the beauty of the net. You dont have to read anything you dont wish to. Just dont crucify others for their likes!"

Yet we open a door to people who take this and run with it. "oh, this woman on this website says women actually want to be raped, when they don't consent, you can still force it on them and they will turn around to worship you"

I hope you notice nowhere in the OP did the boss point out that this is only a fantasy. In fact, I think she made it fairly clear that making it a fantasy or role play enactment or giving any form of consent won't do.

You might be happy to condone this kind of message in your society, others still have the right to protest.

-sudolly
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the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

Whilst I do not think of myself as a feminist, I do know that there are some feminists who only eschew NON-CONSENSUAL male dominance. There are some who recognise their own desire for a dominant man and see Taken In Hand as a legitimate choice. To such feminists, feminism is about increasing choice, not forcing everyone to be equal in ways they dislike.

Admittedly, I haven't met any such feminists in real life, but I have met some through Taken In Hand, and I hope that some of them will post their own answers to your question.

So although Sudolly and I have our differences ;-) I applaude her courage in facing the fact that she is drawn to Taken In Hand. In this, she is sure to attract ire from some other feminists, and I only wish I myself had had her bravery in my early 20s.

Guys, I want to apologize for being a bit too blunt with some of my wording from the start on this subject. Believe me, I in no way “want” to offend anyone, but I felt very strongly about the subject. Plus keep in mind I never said women are evil, I said people think and do evil things.

As I continue to write here, I will try to be more careful with how I word things so I do not betray my message or the reader. Just take my opinion for what its worth and don’t be upset, I am a real easy going guy and I care about people, I guess that’s why I cringe when rape is used in relation to a fantasy, not just here, women do it all over the place and its disturbing.

This is a great website that brings up important issues. I want to be a positive part of it and learn from other writers. Your opinions, and how I express my own, are important to me.

Sincerely,
Jerry

>>>>>>>> To them, feminism means getting advantages for women by hurting civil rights of men (IMO).

And that is *my* definition of feminism.

>>>>>>>> I personally call them feminazis.

That is what I call the misandrists.

>>>>>>>> So when someone asks me if I am a feminist, I usually say, "I am all for equality, but there are some feminist ideas out there that I disagree with."

I don't have a problem with equality. I do, however, have a problem with the Neo-Nazi mentality that infests the minds of most of the ones I know who call themselves feminists.

>>>>>>>> I don't see how a woman can have ANYTHING to submit to a man when society already stripped her of power completely.

I agree with you on that point. If there is nothing to give there is no gift. I have no problem with equality as it should be. I just have difficulty dealing with the inequalities and outright hatred that feminism has dumped on us men. It's in advertising, the media, and it slips out in ordinary conversation.

I imagine that when the word "feminism" was first coined that the intention was equality. But, nowadays, it's a hot-button word, and its very utterance has embedded in it the desire to crush the dreams of men and extinguish their very will to live. So, regardless of the original meaning, its connotation instills mistrust and despair, which in turn inspire new ill feelings.

KrosRogue

I think you and I seem to disagree more on semantics than on sentiment. "I say 'poe tay toe' and you say 'poe tah toe'". ;-) I prefer it mashed and perhaps you would prefer it in a salad, but it's still a spud, no matter what you do with it or how it's pronounced.

We both seem to agree on equality, but we split violently when you say "feminism is equality" and I say "feminism is not equality". Some words are emotionally charged for some and the same words are nearly neutral to others. For me, "feminism" has a highly explosive negative charge because of face-to-face encounters I have had that were very nasty.

KrosRogue

I was deceived like most others when I was younger. Now having had friends explain things and then doing research on my own the past year, my eyes have been opened to what feminism really is, extreme or not.

Today however, in our modern wealth and liberalism, the roles of men and women are skewed in the interest of money and power.

You want to live like Victorian, that's your choice and nobody's business. If another woman is strong in nature and career-minded, nobody should tell her she is a bad woman until she transform into a chore-ridden housewife.

Where did the “feminine” role and “masculine” role came from anyway? Let me guess, the spooky book? There are plenty of “traditional” matrilocal cultures in which it is the norm for the man to marry into the woman's family; there are polygamous society in which a woman is married to a harem of husbands and they server her like the queen. So why aren't we following their gender role? Why is your idea of dominant man submissive woman more right than others?

in a day when the roles of man and women were much more clear for survival and strength of the nation. Men and women have unique roles and they compliment each other perfectly with them.

The social and political manoeuvring of feminist agendas has done more to weaken western nations than any other enemy army in history.

BTW, a quick check in history will tell you that the Victorian regime of sexual and gender role regulation started EXACTLY the same time as birth of Capitalism. For reference, check with M. Foucault and Reich.

The label of victim for women has resulted in government and society heaping privileges and freedoms onto women at the expense of men and many traditionally minded women, destroying families and lives with agenda-forcing laws.

Or check out China's “traditional” role model, where “worthy women” have their feet broken and bound by age three, so that the woman stays inside the house, so that the woman wobbles as she walks, so that the woman must rely on her husband for support. Great tradition, isn't it? Why are we crying “victims” now?

Then there is the modern trend of anorexia, in which no worth woman can be an ounce over 45Kg....

Yes, LOTS of women were depressed, LOTS of housewives didn't want to be housewives, LOTS of women wanted financial freedom and independence, but society is organized so that these choices are not available. What's wrong with calling victims victims? Are that kinds of traditions better than liberty? Why don't we all revert back to coercion of labour division based on gender, regardless of what each individual wants! [/sarcasm off]

Really, Ram, is it the woman that you cherish, or the old fashion stereotype of what an “ideal woman” should be that you love? A career-minded, competitive woman isn't a woman? She isn't worthy of cherishing?

And no, I don't think it is the norm to believe women “want rape.” I thought the controversy of this thread would have given you a hint already.

Feminism has seriously improved my quality of life. I can only read about the traditional, institutionalized gender inequalities with detached horror. Too bad for you that it's no longer legally condoned to beat your wife with a stick the diameter of your thumb; too bad women nowadays are treated as individuals, instead of just another possession of men. Out of feminism and liberty are men and women who cherish each others as equally valuable lovers, and not owner/servant-slave. I guess some men miss that privilege, but as far as I am concerned, its better for the society as a whole.

-sudolly
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the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

I already offered my e-mail address if you wish to take things private.

I am still waiting for you to explain your claim to objective knowledge about the real meaning of feminism; to explain how feminist movements and liberty has weakened Western nations, what's wrong with calling victims “victims”, what's wrong with correcting inequality so that women can have the freedom and choice to do what they want when it hurts no one – and while you are at it, please explain what you mean by saying that it is at the expense of men – what expense?

-sudolly
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the belief in truth is precisely madness - Nietzsche

I understand that the word rape is a powerful one. In society, some words have "special status" in that they are not supposed to be used, save for a particular context. And "rape" is surely one of them. I agree with those here who say that what is commonly referred to as a "rape fantasy" isn't really that at all. It is a fantasy about sexual force. In these fantasies you want to submit...but you want to be forced to do so. The fantasy is that you are taken to a place where you want to go...which is a place of sexual submission. It's just a different way of getting there. This is not a fantasy of rape.

Most people who have posted (including the boss in founding article) are very quick to point out that they in no way condone real rape, etc. However, in my view it isn't the best idea to condone "rape fantasy" either, if that is in fact what it truly is. If someone is having fantasies about being physically abused, subjected to disease...even death...well, in my view then perhaps there are issues at play that might best be served by a professional counselor.

But the thing is, that is not what most women mean when they say that they have "rape fantasies"...what they are talking about is the forced sexual submission aspects. Not the down and dirty, not-fun-kind of pain, humiliation, etc. that most often goes hand in hand with being raped.

I think the true gift here is being with a partner who is willing to help you express your sexual self...even if that expression takes you out to the "edge." I know that there isn't a neat and tidy word to describe what we are talking about...but I know it isn't "rape." The very fact that you talk/negotiate the terms of the experience puts you in a certain position of control and power...which is the antithesis of rape. So I would suggest we all try to avoid the term "rape fantasy" and go with something more like the "Take me and use me when and how you want" fantasy. Not as compact I know, but we can't have everything.

Be well.

Kirk

Ramileous wrote:

Feminism has seeped into culture so much, its is like a plague, the scars will always be there even after the body heals. I believe that one reason why much of our culture has embraced the term "rape" in relation to womens fantasy, is not because women want to be raped, but because people have lost any moral wisdom to be repulsed by what rape really stands for. Society is so reluctant to deny women what they want, that it has come to accept skewing the English language and believe women want rape, on a womans terms. Much of this is because of feminism

Perhaps it is neither. Perhaps some women are not brainwashed either by men or feminism, are not victims, do not need therapy, and are not traitors to their own sex: they just enjoy the feeling of being thoroughly conquered, taken, dominated by the man they love – and this is a way of experiencing the man's thrilling strength in a powerful, exciting, deeply trusting way.

Ramileous goes on:

society encourages women to do what they want, complete liberty, from using biased justice systems to take advantage of men to using words that women don’t really mean, such as rape.

Don't get me wrong, I cherish women and who they are. However it is clear feminism does not, because feminism tries to make women to be competitors and enemies of men which is against the very nature of women all together. Feminism has raped men and women of better lives, for those who have been directly affected, I would venture to guess they never would have had a fantasy for it.

My dear 'boss', when did I ever say only use rape to refer to a crime? We can use the word rape in all sorts of ways within the bounds of what its described for, to describe something bad, violent, or a violation, which incidently is usually a crime. Even the dictionary gives an example “To rape the land”. I have been saying all along that women use the word rape in the wrong way by comparing it to a fantasy. We need to use the English word “rape” properly and I feel feminism is a form of rape on people.

I say feminism is like a rapist, it has come into our lives by force and stolen from us. It has deceived men and women and robbed many of them of what could have been great relations. It has taken away mens rights and beaten them down against their will. Now then I say, of all the people whose lives have been altered negatively by feminism, do you think they would have had a fantasy or dreamed of it as being good? Of course not, rape is never good, its bad, thus its definition.

The whole sentence brings this article into a new perspective. I have questioned the use of the word rape used to describe a fantasy meant to please women. No woman wants to be really raped, henceforth no person dreams or wants their life damaged by feminism either.

Basically that sentence was meant to cleverly tie in this threads subject and my opinion. That feminism is bad for society, so is rape and no person in their right mind would have a fantasy of their life being hurt by feminism or by rape.

A need so great. To be TAKEN. Conquered. Thoroughly. No choice.

To know that he will brook no dissent, he will just TAKE me, rape me, make me his.

Every time he does this, he makes me his all over again. His property. His woman. His.

This is the one sure way to turn me from a fiesty in-your-face don't-mess-with-me gal into a soft, submissive, peaceful wife.

I love feeling submissive, I just don't often feel that way.

But when he rapes me, I'm flying flying flying. Submissive.

This is what I want. This is what I choose. This is what I need. No choice.

That's my choice. He needed to be persuaded. But now he sees how much I love it, how much it means to me, how much I long to feel submissive and how this does it for me like nothing else, and so he does it sometimes. For me. For us. It changes a man when you give him this consent. He walks taller, with pride in his eyes. I like that. I love him. I am his.