Hardcore rape scenes can be played without safewords...if the couple involved know each other well and have "played" before (like a husband and wife). Safewords are always a good idea, but my wife and I have been in the BD/Rape scene for 20 years and we've never had to use one. Anyway, all of this is not on the boss's point and is worthy discussion for another time. She is discussing the wants of many women in regards to fantasy rape.

Odds for one year (in the U.S):

Chances of getting AIDS from heterosexual sex without wearing a condom: 1 in 5 million

Chances of getting injured in a bubble bath: 1 in 1.3 million.

Chances of being struck by lightning: 1 in 600,000.

Chances of being murdered: 1 in 11,000 (27,000 murders a year)

- American Medical Association -

I am new to the site and i am a "rape player". So this subject holds alot of interest to me. First of all I have never "raped" an unwilling woman and nor do I have the desire to. What some people here just aren't getting is this is between two consenting adults. It's called PLAY rape. There are many differences aside from it being a consentual thing. An actual rape can result in death, beatings and many other brutal results. There is NONE of that in play rape.

Agreements and limits are set. Safe words are used. Somehow I don't see a criminal rapist affording those kinds of things to his victim. There is no fear factor for her life as one response here stated who actually was raped. More of an excitment of what is coming next. I don't hate women and play rape is not an act of violence against them. I can separate this roleplay from actual rape and treat it for what it is which is fantasy.

A criminal rapist would think this was a boring game compared to his idea of rape. Women who do this get pleasure from a FANTASY and not guilt or pain from actual rape. I'm not sure why anyone here would object to what CONSENTING adults choose to do behind closed doors.

There are many on here I am sure who have used bondage as a form of their play activities. Is someone who ties another person up a kidnapper? After all they are holding someone against their will. Of course not because the activity is consentual just as play rape is.

Rape is a very bad thing in of itself and I can understand women's distaste for the word in it's actual meaning. But please try and seperate consentual rape play from criminal rape. There is a huge difference!

wow the boss,
i just stumbled across this site and yours was the first article i read. i confess, i always have had "rape" fantasies. i am a submissive by nature, and i understood what you were trying to get across. i also had my fantasy .
i really wonder what the people who object to the article read, for obviously was not the same article i read.
i too think Rape is an act of violence. but again this is not what you were referring to... safewords are a matter of preference to the couple... some D/s do not operate under a contract and have no safewords. yes i know because my D and i do not operate under those aspects. Thank you, the boss
i am glad you have stood by your article.

GOI wrote:

her body told me that she got really excited with a rape story, but she absolutely refused to admit it...

This ambivalence (which is clearly described in some women's contributions here) is what fascinates me most: the mind says no, but the body says yes. [...]

[...]

Women are by nature more careful about sex. They don't give themselves to everybody, and they don't always feel like giving themselves; I guess it's an instinct, because the possible consequences of a pregnancy are much more drastic for the female. Thus it is natural that they are generally more hesitant about it – sometimes even if they physically desire it.

There is some truth in this, but it is not quite right, I think.

A woman (or some of us, anyway) can be very aroused physically (perhaps because a man is physically overwhelming and she responds to that whether she wants to or not) yet mentally and psychologically absolutely horrified by the idea of being taken by that man, or of being taken by the man at that moment. Yes, this can sometimes be a case in which, if she is taken, it will be an intense sexual experience for her, but it can also be hideously distressing and sickening, leaving her feeling deep revulsion and physically sick. It can put her off the man for life.

Conversely, there are times (with a man with whom one feels safe and intimate, say) when one can be absolutely not in the mood, but when taken, one instantly gets in the mood, and this includes mentally wanting it, not, as you said, mentally not wanting it.

Mentally not wanting it and continuing not to want it (irrespective of what the body is doing) = nonconsent, and is associated with distress and all sorts of negative emotions. One of the things that happens that is rather tragic is that a man and a woman in a new or potential relationship get physical before the woman is ready. The man perhaps reasons that because her body is screaming TAKE ME NOW, he can safely ignore her clearly-stated wish not to get physical yet. He then overwhelms her, takes her, and then wonders why she is so upset, disturbed, or otherwise adversely affected. After all, her body clearly indicated desire, so what was the problem?

It is a big problem! If a woman you are just getting to know says that she wants not to have sex or get physical until you know each other well, then whatever her body says to you, listen to her words. Wait until you have consent before engaging in ‘rape’ or any other kind of sexual contact.

The reason I am going on about this is because it is vital to understand that when you ‘rape’ a woman, she wants it, and to the extent that she really doesn't want it, and especially if she does not abandon herself to it, it is rape as opposed to ‘rape’ and likely to end in tears.

In a stable relationship, I personally have no problem with the idea of the man I love raping me, because I am sure that I could abandon myself to it and enjoy it, even if I really had not wanted it. But if a man I did not know well and with whom I was not in a full relationship (preferably marriage, indeed!) were to rape me, even if he thought my body was screaming out for him to do it, that would be the end of the potential relationship. There has to be consent. Without consent, it is completely unforgivable – no matter how powerful the resulting sex.

Make no mistake: if a woman you are just getting to know wants to take things slowly, and you take her anyway, the chances are, she will not want to see you again. This is particularly true of women like me, Taken In Hand women, and women who like ‘rape’, because being ‘raped’ or taken in hand is potentially dangerous and not something we want to be doing with a man who has no self-control or a man who ignores the fact that he does not have consent. Such a man is likely to turn out to be a narcissist who would make life hell for the woman unfortunate enough to be with him. A Taken In Hand woman needs to know that the man she is considering having a relationship with will respect her boundaries and take her wishes into account. If he does not even bother to ensure that he has consent at the outset, whatever is he going to be like two decades into the relationship?

When there is a fully consenting relationship in which these things are clearly and consensually part of the intended relationship, then your statement that the woman doesn't want it just isn't true. She does want it, passionately, including when she seems not to want it.

Just be sure you have real consent before proceeding, or you could blow a potentially thrilling relationship.

I've had a rape and impregnation fetish since being date-raped when I was nineteen. I'm 25 now and while I cannot say that I enjoyed being raped, there was this all-encompassing thrill from being taken without protection by a man who was in complete control of me. The danger of being forcibly impregnated is now this "chasing the dragon" kind of thrill for me. I've only had one relationship since the rape that lasted any amount of time and I have to admit that I would love to find a man who is sexually demanding and insistent on making me bear his children. I'd gladly submit myself to him if I could find him. I completely understand what you're about and I applaud your courage to post this on the internet!

YOU'RE way off here man.....and most psychologists and psychiatrists ALL AGREE AND ADMIT,,, that most women in private sessions CRAVE rape in the fashion that the boss describes (great article the boss)...and MOST women also crave REAL rape IN REAL LIFE NO LESS ,,,,as long as there is NO bloodshed involved and no chance of disease and or pregnancies.

FRANKIE V

I'd love to see that information backed up by some article in any reputable psy. journal.

This is not say that I disagree with the intent of the message.

Pardon if I ramble for a bit to get what I want to say out. I've been coming here and reading for a long while, but only recently joined when I gave the URL to a friend who I've known for almost seventeen years. From our emails over the years I pretty much figured that she had inclinations toward Taken In Hand and once she worked her way through a lot of the posts she sent me a message.

Paraphrased, it went 'thanks for leading me to the site, I no longer feel like a freak for having these desires.'

I'm 42 years old, and in the four significant relationships I've had, every woman wanted to experience this at varying levels. They all got what they wished with varying degrees of satisfaction.

IMHO, them just asking me to do it, was a blanket consent for the act itself. These were not strangers, and I would not even think of doing it with a stranger.

I think what the folks who are raising a ruckus here are missing is this. Words have more than one meaning. There is RAPE, and there is rape.

Harming an innocent person who has never spoken to you about it, is a horrific crime, which should be punishable by feeding the offender feet first into a woodchipper. 'nuff said.

But when my wife looks at me across a table and says, "I want you to take me. I want it to be rough...make it rape...." She has consented.

Now, on another topic, having been in the scene for about twenty years, I'd like to offer a bit of advice.

1. Do not take things so seriously. Your version of SSC might be different than mine. Either because you have more or less experience. My partners trust my judgement, that you might not, does not concerm me Your lectures unless they contain an actual original thought do not impress, and worse they do nothing to further discussion.

2. Use your common sense. Domestic violence is a crime, and while your interpretation of what people have said on here might fall into the area that you would define in your own relationships to be that... If they do not think it is in theirs... they probably know better than you.

3. In those times when you want to berate someone for expressing an idea (great first post btw the boss), if you cannot debate it without being judgemental, your hands are best used for coloring and your mouth for chewing.

Tigh

"Strength does not come from physical capacity, but from an indominatable will." Ghandi"

This is an interesting site and I am not even an american,i am from the middle east and yes!!! we also have the same fantasies as the american women.but My fantasies of forced rough down and dirty sex are for the opposite reasons and I do feel ashamed of them,I was sexually abused for years by a acquantance which lasted for almost 4 years.My society is very strict and almost choking for women.I have been beaten up,thrashed and verbally abused and humiliated by my father and brothers til this age.I think my fantasy is rooted in my troubled past not out of some hot rough sex rendevous,since I am from middle east I will probably remain virgin til I marry,doesn't sound too exciting to me but I have no choice.American women are fortunate,they can tell their husband or partner they want to be physically dominated,If i say that to a man here,He will spank me alright but not for fun!!

I am a retired police officer of 24 yrs and as I read these threads it was very refreshing to finally hear from someone who knew what the actual definition of Rape is. It is penetration by force. That means penetration by anything without consent and into any opening. All of the talk here so far has referred to men being the agressor and women being the victim which, in most cases, is true. However, I feel we should keep in mind that men can also be the victim of a rape.

I am very sorry to hear that both the boss and Honeybee are victims of rape and because I am a gentleman I won't say what I think should be done to the suspects. Let's just say they should be used as an example far and beyond what our laws allow. I respect you both for not only admitting to the readers you had been victims, but even more so for recovering from the very horrible incident and using your experience in a way to help others. For that I am proud of you both even though we have never met.

Unfortunately what is being said here is correct. A large number of women (mostly) fantasize of being raped. Even though what they really are asking for is to be taken with a resonable amount of force by someone they love, respect and trust which is not the true definition of Rape. I believe what the boss wrote here and the reference to Rape may be disgusting to some, but it is the word used by most that fantasize about it. So for the reason it was brought up I think the boss explained herself very well and used the right terminology. I may not agree with everything that is said here by so many, but I do acknowledge it takes guts to type your opinion to be seen and criticised by many. For that I respect your opinion even though it may not be mine and I commend you for being able to be honest about your thoughts. After all.. That was the reason the subject was brought up originally.. correct? I doubt when the boss brought the subject up she thought all would agree with her. Instead of degrading people for their opinion you should respect them for it just as I assume you would want them to respect your opinion. Unless you feel yours is the only one that counts. I promise if you disagree with what I have said I will still sleep at night. Stay Safe all and WAY TO GO the boss.

Having read the original thread, I have to say (as a very sexually liberated woman) that the author unwisely used the word rape to convey the idea of 'being taken' by a sexual partner. There is a HUGE difference between the two.

Rape, by definition is the crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse. Rape is non consensual. What the author is describing is definitely consensual sexual intercourse between two WILLING parties, regardless of how rough that sexual intercourse becomes during the act of sex.

Therefore, this fantasy of 'being taken', which is commonly shared by women worldwide, is not a desire to be raped, but a desire to submit to the sexual will of a willing male partner. On the other side of the coin, many men also fantasise about roughly 'taking' their women, thereby asserting their masculinity and strength. There is nothing wrong with this if both parties are willing participants.

The problem with this article isn't the ideals involved in either gender fantasising about forceful sex between willing partners, it's the improper use of the word rape to describe that.

A woman gives to everyone around her, she organizes, plans, coordinates, controls, mothers, she schedules,....

but to be taken, is to give up some of that control, ot be taken in love, and great intimacy, without fear normally attached to "rape" outside of relationship.

I've been taken in date rape, as my first experience to "4th base", and left feeling defiled. I've been taken by a marriage partner who replied aferwards "sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" and again felt used... I've allowed my body to be taken for the pleasure of my husband just so that he will quit moping around the house and "feel loved" because he needs it, but I feel nothing...

And I've been taken in lust by a lover who truely has me, mind, body and soul, conquered by one who already has my heart and my desire, "forced" to his will and his bidding.

It was "freeing" to be "used" thusly, incredibly erotic incredibly intimate, incredibly lust filled animalistic love, where thinking (on my part) completely stopped. The world stopped. I controlled nothing, planned nothing, (beyond asking him to tie me up).

And it's good for a woman to have her world stopped once in awhile....

kj

Horse shit. Just because it isn't YOUR thing, don't judge it for others...she was very open about the how/why/wherefores- and I agree with her 100%. Go sit in a catholic church service if you want to condemn others...otherwise shut the HELL up, and agree to disagree, or at least acknowledge that there are people who feel differently from you, but are not wrong or deviant...

I don't know which comment you are replying to, but I've been to a number of Catholic church services and have never noticed that they are any more condemnatory than any other religion, I have always had the impression that hard-line Protestants tend to be more condemnatory than Catholics. The great thing about being a Catholic is that you can do what you like and then go and confess it and be absolved. Other religions do not have this advantage. If I was going to take to religion, I would definitely become a Catholic, it's much the most satisfactory one to belong to.

I haven't bothered to wade through the numerous pages of this discussion; in fact, I read the first page and the last page. I just feel the need to comment on this, to all the women (or women who said they know women, or men who said it) that fantasize about being raped:

No. No you do not. You cannot enjoy it, you cannot fantasize about it - unless you fantasize about things you hate. You cannot want it. You are, quite frankly, stupid for thinking so. You can want to be dominated, you can want to be overpowered by a lover, you can want a whole host of things. But you cannot want to be raped.

Why? Because the moment you want it it is not rape. You can want rough sex, you can want to be overpowered playfully, etc. But you can't want rape; you can't act it out; you can't do anything concerning rape except be raped. Rape stops being rape when you want it. Stop thinking you want it. Amber's post on the first page, where she talks about her boyfriend 'raping' her and her loving it - that's the kind of bullshit that needs to be stopped. That was not rape if she liked it and wanted it. And if she didn't like or want it she wouldn't consider it a good thing. It wasn't rape; it was rough sex.

In conclusion: No. No you do not want to be raped. If you think you do you are wrong and I am right.

I do not think it is a shame that the law has changed. No man should be able to force himself on his wife against her will. Frankly I think any man who would end a relationship simply because his wife didn't happen to feel like having sex whenever he did would have to be a bit pathetic. Nobody feels like it all the time, even if only through illness or sheer tiredness. My husband doesn't 'require' me to consent to sex, I find I generally want it whenever he does these days, but it's not something he 'requires' of me, it would never occur to him to think of sex as some kind of service I was supposed to provide for him whether I liked it or not. Sex should be a mutual pleasure, not a duty.

On this subject of 'rape fantasies', we really need to establish the use of a seperate word, as others have already commented upon before me.

Rape: No consent

Ravish: Consent given previously to engage in rough, dominant sex despite outward appearance of non-consent.

This would be good adoption for the entire community, don't you agree?

That read like a rapist trying to convince himself that what he did was actually for the woman's benefit. Thanks for fucking over every other woman who doesn't want to be raped by reinforcing the centuries old myth that we enjoy rape and there's nothing wrong with it.

There is a long and fascinating discussion about When rape is a gift on a feminist blog. You can find it here. Most of the commentators seem to take the view that Taken In Hand, and this article in particular, reinforce patriarchy and harm women. They do not approve of people choosing Taken In Hand relationships.

But what is the difference between forbidding the choice to be Taken In Hand, and forbidding the choice not to be Taken In Hand? What good will it do anyone to replace one set of prescriptions and proscriptions with another? As I have always said, I no more want to dictate to others what their choices should be for their own lives, than I want them to dictate to me what mine should be. And if the day were to come when Taken In Hand were in danger of becoming compulsory, I'd be fighting to the death to prevent that appalling outcome. It would be an abomination if it were compulsory.

The view that says that Taken In Hand should not exist, and that it is harmful, rests on an incredibly pessimistic view of people. I do not personally think of other people as being weak, impressionable sheep. I think that they are perfectly capable of reading this site critically and making up their own minds. They don't in fact need to be protected from themselves and prevented from making their own choices lest they come to harm. I think people are more autonomous and critical than some of the posters on the above-linked site would have us believe.

I have always had the fantasy of being kidnapped by Indians and raped by all of them. Also, with Pirates... Being taken out to sea and being raped by all. What does this make me? I mean this is coming from someone who as only had 1 partner in 18 years and now going through a divorce.... I have turned a 180 since..... It's thrilling and scary at the same time.

Your site is merely fodder for all those who seek to blame the victim, to charge a woman with "crying rape," by leading others to believe that this "rape = gift" is a normal, healthy fantasy.

It is not.

Either one consents to sex, or one does not. Your "rape" is actually a role-playing fantasy for which you and your partner have set boundaries in advance. Your use of the word "rape" does a disservice to all women and men who have suffered from sexual violence.

I do not want my sons or daughters, or your sons or daughters, to learn from you and other people with similar practices, that women secretly desire to be raped, that when women say "no" they really mean "yes," that brutalization is desirable. It is not. In using the word "rape" to describe your sexual encounter with your husband, your words become false, full of hate and poison.

Advocate all you like for your particular fetish, talk all you want about it with like-minded people, but do not even begin to imply that women want to be raped. When it is rape, women do not want it. When women do not want it, it is rape. There is enough violence against women on this planet without your website adding to it.

-LK

As I read this article I too thought wouldn't this whole thing be much simpler with a safeword that way ther is no fear of doing anything wrong. With a safeword she can scream shout and object as much as she likes and both of you will still know what that other wants after all the main reason for safe words is so people can object without killing the mood.

As for the issue of condoms and spreading disease I think for a couple to get into things of this intensity they would be rather involved which hopefully means they have both been tested before and are clean, and when it comes to pregnancy there are many other options (the pill, ecp,...and other worst case senario things.) a sensible couple would work all this out first

Thank God for you, Jeff. This would seem to be the only sane comment here.

The real problem in the original post was the use of the word 'rape'. As I went through the comments I was thinking 'What are they all going on about?'. The OP means 'ravishment'. A time when one partner in a relationship wants to make love without necessarily seeking the partner's consent at the time of the need and act.

As we are already in a relationship whereby both partners have set out what they require and need from the relationship, surely they are allowed to negotiate what form of sexual activities they prefer?

Now if this means that the couple like it if the male 'jumps' his female partner when he wishes to and thereby also fulfills her fantasies, how can this be wrong?

I know that I am being simplistic here, but I cannot see where the problem lies if two consenting adults take part in an act which they have both consented to and which, for them, is highly erotic.

I am simply jealous! :)) Anyone for swinging from the chandelier?

Rokesmith

Well, I know that not all women fantasise about being raped because I am a woman and I don't. Rape leaves me cold and does nothing for me whatsoever. I frankly don't understand at all why it's something any woman would want, but then a lot of women feel the same way about spanking for instance, which is something I want very much. there's no accounting for taste.

And I am extremely doubtful whether what animals do in general can be called 'rape'. When I have occasionally seen animals mating the female has generally seemed to be compliant, I haven't seen any signs of them struggling or resisting. They don't always look very interested in what's going on, but they seem to be resigned to it rather than resistant.

The fact that you almost ended up in prison due to a vengeful woman's acccusations should, it seems, have suggested to you that not all women are enthusiasts for 'rape'. Not all women want to 'experience nature' if that includes rape, and I am one of them.

Louise

98% of the time, true rape is about sex. NOT violence. At some point in the last 30 years or so, a number of feminists got it into their heads that rapists have somehow all gotten together into some sort of patriarchal conspiracy against women. And it's just not true.

Rapists rape because they want to have sex with women who aren't likely to say 'yes.' Tell me this: does the pickpocket take your wallet because he wants you to have to spend days on the phone cancelling your credit cards and replacing your drivers license? No, of course not. He takes your wallet because he wants your money. It's not that he wants to create the hassle for you - he just doesn't care enough about it to not steal the wallet in the first place.

So it is with the rapist. 98% of the time, the rapist just wants the sex. Violence is a tool to get it from the woman, just as thievery is the pickpocket's tool for getting what he wants. Sure, there are a few truly psychotic, sadistic rapists out there who honestly want to brutalize women for it's own sake. But those guys are the exception, the lone weirdos pouncing on women beside jogging trails. The vast majority of rapes occur under social circumstances. The women are not beaten or injured any more than is necessary for the rapist to get what he wants.

Look at what any rapist has to say for himself after he has been caught and proven guilty. They almost all say that they raped the woman because they think that "she was asking for it" and that they wanted to have sex with her. Not because they have some love for violence. I've known several people who ended up being guilty of date rape. None of them were really violent people. They were just guys who couldn't take 'no' for an answer.

Please don't mistake any of this as an excuse for 'true rape.' I am simply trying to establish the truth about it in the face of myths created by women who didn't know the first thing about men.

I'm slightly confused as to what point you are trying to make here. Rpaists aren't really violent, they just want sex, and so that makes it okay for them to rape women in order to get it? Forcing sex on a woman IS an act of violence and extreme brutality, the fact that a man is desperate for sex does not make it all right for him to rape a woman. Most sane men would, I imagine, agree with this.

Louise

I don't think he was saying that rape is not a violent act - nonconsensual rape, that is. I think what he was saying was that it has been the CW for a long time that rape has NOTHING to do with sex and EVERYTHING to do with violence, particularly violence and/or misogyny. I have always disagreed with the CW on this subject, by the way, and I agree with this poster.

the boss,

I ran into your webpage and was surprised to find out that I am not the only woman with fantasies of being "taken" against my will. I am so proud that someone actually had the guts to say it out loud. Thank you for that.

To Ramelious.. a quote from your paper...Women naturally want babies and a husband who is strong enough to care for her, women don’t want to be presidents, soldiers, big businessmen or fathers so why raise them to be?

Who says women don't want to be presidents or big businessmen or soldiers? I doubt they could genetically be fathers.. but otherwise.. I believe your early protests to this thread were off base with your other beliefs. How can you be "morally" opposed to rape/rape fantasies, and believe in gender equality - while at the same time, believe that "no woman could want to be president, businessman, etc." Just curious. And BTW, not all women want babies.

I know what you mean. I tell my fiance often I want him to take what is his. I absolutely love it when I go to bed before him and he wakes me up with sex because I did not take care of him before I went to sleep. When he does this it really amkes me feel like I BELONG to him. I feel so satisfied that I was able to saisfy him.

ok folks...we may wind up on some swampy mucky murky ground here, and I'm remaining anonymous, because I'm still lurking, but I've just GOT to talk about this one.

I'm going to do my best to keep this neutral and non-offensive, but I might step on someone's toes anyway.

I think something that's being overlooked here is *instinct*
We ARE animals. Period. And we are pack animals. We form packs or family groups. Now, there have been some intresting studies done about this very thing in biology, and it appears to be based upon several factors.

One- The female chooses the male. Biologically, a female wants a strong male to pass along good gentics with. in most cases, this has to do with the male making displays, bribing the female with food, etc. This works when the male to female size ratio is roughly equal. Not necessarily so with humans. The female is of a smaller size, and so that dictates that biologically it become more competitive for the male to mate her in such a way. In humans, instead of the other primates, the upright walk has formed a *barrier* by the shifting of the sexual organs, to simple *distract and pounce* sex, seen often with chimps, gorillas, etc.

two- Females test males for fitness to mate. in a situation like what we have, where the female is of a smaller size, and has her body basically shielded and built in such a way as to make more common forms of sex impossible (anyone honestly tried standing up? it's damn difficult) she can choose to be more selective, and that brings us to point 3.

three- dominant and not so dominant males. Instinctually, being on top of the pack means that your genes will be the ones passed along (which is really all our biology cares about...state of mind is just an inconvenece to biology's point of view.) Females want a dominant male (whatever their selection criteria is)to pass on genes and males want to be the dominant one, so they can pass on genes as well.

this adds up to a rather ugly mess in which the male either has to bribe the female, or to force her into mating.

Bribery carries very little biological impetus, as it could be a mere windfall of food, etc. So nature selects for force, making the male larger, stronger, etc, to assure mating.

This doesn't make Rape *right*, however, it does give at least a biological background for the fantasies and drives for rough or violent sex.

Now, before any of you decide to totally blast me out of the water, I'm a counselor, a survivor, (yes, I'm male, and believe me, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, except that if you say that something happened to you, you're taken less seriously than women) and a person who's dated and had relationships with survivors and nonsurvivors alike.

Too the boss: I had to do a lot of soulsearching and a lot of talking with my previous partners, and I finally concluded pretty much the same thing you did with your article.

From a discussion I had about this very article in a matter of fact.

If I understand this properly, you're saying you have the desire, at least from time to time, to be so owned, to be subdued, and to be taken forcefully and fully, whether you fight or not, by someone that you know at your core won't cause lasting harm to you, but not by some random stranger, or jealous ex, or psychopath that could give no care about your wellbeing. You want it to be part of the relationship's experince, and part of the power exchange, not a victimization.

I was in a relationship with a girl who enjoyed rape fantasies (to whom, like you, it had actually happened to) and who wanted to engage in them with me. We talked it over, seriously talked it over, and came to an agreement about it where it became *blanket consent* for me to have her, on my terms, whenever I wanted her. She was fine with it, and she stated such in a notarized letter (for mutual legal protection, in case some random 3rd party decided it was their business to rescue this "poor battered girl, who's been brainwashed so bad she thinks she enjoys this") which she presented to me as a gift.

One of our friends saw it and asked *Why? isn't that just inviting abuse?* to which she responded *If I thought he'd victimize me, I wouldn't be here, If he were that determined, he's had many an opportunity that he hasn't taken, and one would have to ask why, AND I happen to enjoy it, even if I do fight, and claw, and scream *NO* and bite...there's a primal part of me that KNOWS that I want this, like this, and that no matter how rough the sex is, if it doesn't have that edge to it, it's just not fulfilling. Honestly, he's so gentle, that if I didn't give him consent, he wouldn't and if I ever wanted out, I could tell him so, and he'd shred the letter on the spot. Honestly, I love him more because he's willing to give me what I want and need than if he weren't. That's not to say I want to be attacked in the club again, but him- it's different.*

I don't understand it so well, myself, but I've figured out that yes, we want a form of that primal coupling, yes it can be mistaken for nonconsensual rape, and yes, it follows the pattern of *no. no. No. NO. DAMMIT RIGHT NOW!*

The point that causes a lot of problem is the place where it goes from being a limit, to NOT. In other words...the line of consent.

I don't like *no* in a scene or fantasy, because for me, that's a sacrosanct hard limit. I have found it best summed up by a really sweet girl who learned how to speak male.

*Sweetie...not all the time when I say *no* do I mean no...a lot of times it means *not yet*. *If I say no, and then slug you...then it means no....sometimes.*

Confusing. yeah. me too.

Slippery ugly legal ground? Possibly. But it's kind of like in *screw the roses, send me the thorns* (paraphrased) *when one person is strapped down naked, and the other is standing over with a torture implement, that is NOT the time to have a serious mismatch of expectations.*

Now for something no other guy here has apparently decided to chime in over.

I have fantasies too.

I won't go into the specific details, but yeah. I've got them.

Just as a woman wouldn't go out to try and fulfill a fantasy of being raped by a stranger, I wouldn't play this out with just anyone. It's something that would come with a lot of talk, a lot of trust, and a lot of work. For me, and the girls that I've gone over this with, this is the understanding we came to - We're adults. We can choose to do this, and it's the *why* not the *what* that's important.

I've taken it upon myself to break into a hosue and beat a man senseless for beating his wife, but I've stood idly by and watched a friend lay stripes down his lady's back with a cane- why?

The first guy was trying to cause her longlasting harm, the second, she'd agreed to. She hadn't given consent at the time, but she told him that if she ever misbehaved to a point he thought it was needed, then he could do so. Blanket consent.

But also the male's motivations in the situations as well needs to come into it. First guy was beating her for a WARM BEER!. My friend was caning his lady for having a severe moment and throwing away her meds.

In terms of raw tissue damage- the first guy was a complete wuss, had only split her lip. The second guy left 6 ugly stripes down her back.

in terms of psychological damage- the first guy likely caused loads, making her tentative and insecure. (she escaped him that day, though, went to a shelter and is doing pretty well now, I'm told) the second guy, when he took her down..she turned around, and hugged him and cried, thanking him for giving her a reminder that she was loved.

it's a power, and it's a responsibility. WHAT we do with It and WHY we do it are the improtant things to remember...it's all about choice.

I've seen hugs and kisses used as psychological torture, and I've seen people grow free to love each other more with some activites that turn even MY strong stomach (and I studied torture methods throughout the ages as a basis for some very nasty roleplaying villians.) and my stomach has dealt with a lot.

For one party, it requires a sense of timing...knowing when to care rather than to attack, knowing that you can trust her as much as she trusts you to put this kind of power in your hands.

For the other, it requires knowing yourself to know that you'd be comfortable with the outcome, even if it doesn't turn out the exact way you want.

Huh...sounds a lot like a spontaneous scene without safeword to me.

Take care of yourselves and your partners.

Are you being serious when you say that most women have experienced sexual abuse by the time they are 21? Surely not? I'm 50, and I've never experienced sexual abuse in my life, and out of all the women I have known in my life, I have known only 2 who have spoken about being sexually abused when young. Of course, the others might all just be keeping quiet about it, but somehow I doubt it. Surely sexual abuse isn't that common? That suggests that most men are monsters, and I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Louise

RIGHT ON!!!

No offense; had a rather articulate response at hand but lacking the energy to utilize it--so I'll say this:

'Tomato' 'tahmato', ne? If naysayers like you keep referring to a certain word as possessing only negative connotations, that's all it might be. Isn't 'progression' the realization of establishing positive roles and shattering ages old negative stereotypes? Otherwise we wedge ourselves in a place to continue thinking sex in any form is bad and there's only one true, proper religion and way of living.

You're a bit like me, I think. You're almost too intelligent for your own good, but sometimes that lends itself to a little self-enlightenment. In this case, I think you're arguing a moot, bullshit, and ultimately degrading to women (as oppossed to the rallying cry you have that women enjoying anything other than vanilla sex is inherently evil) point.

Lighten up. :)

This thread is the most outrageously tumultuous one on this entire site, and that mainly because of the judgmental attitude of those who choose not to exert the minimal effort required to even attempt to understand what really goes on here. The men are cruel and the women are fearfully abused, or so goes the claim.

I freely admit there is much that goes on here that I don't understand, both in what makes others happy and even in what makes me happy. But just because someone else, you, or I have limited or even no understanding about that which arouses pleasure and contentment in another person or OURSELVES does NOT mean it is necessarily wrong or unhealthy.

There shouldn't have to be any defense for private pleasures between consenting adults, but time and time again it comes because folk like you refuse to believe that this is all consensual AND it brings happiness and HEALTHY contentment to those involved.

You say this is unhealthy. For you it may well be, because you may not enjoy it. But, what is truly unhealthy for the individuals involved is to deny us the means by which our relationships are enriched and fulfilled, which I am sure you would had you the power to do so.

KrosRogue

I did have a woman I was dating ask me to fight her and then 'take' her.

I generally am not in that frame of mind. I want to be wanted so I can enjoy the sexual act. To be honest, I didn't know if I would be able to get an erection, since I don't do that type of thing.

But, I was game enough to try. We both got undressed, and got on the bed. She dared me to make a move, so I grabbed her. She fought back. We wrestled and she resisted enough to stimulate her and me.

I was surprised that I was quite aroused. Since I have never done such a thing, where was this coming from? I can only guess that this is something very deeply seated in our unconscious mind, perhaps quite primitive.

After we were done, she simply said 'Well, I guess I deserved that'. I'm not sure what she meant, I suppose it was the idea that she was being pushed into doing something 'dirty'.

I've not done that since, but I do remember that night quite well. I don't think I will ever forget it.

The fantasy of rape seems to be instilled in men and women, it seems. I have one in which I attack and rape an unsuspecting woman who truly fears for her life, not knowing what to expect. After the encounter, she finds that she enjoyed the experience and becomes my love slave.

Is this possible? I suppose it is. Would I risk it? Hell, no! She may enjoy it, but most likely she wouldn't, and that would ruin both her life and mine.

Mike Starre

I'm a man reading this site for the first time. Down with whining, moaning, immature woman bitching about objectification.

[Comment moved here: Objectification - we are all objects, whether we like it or not - Editor]

I'd like to disagree with the blanket assumption that "rape is never an erotic experience"

For me it was.

I admit that I'm bothered by the constant insistence that real rape is not a sexual act, but only about violence. For me it was sexual. I'm fairly certain it was sexual for him as well.

I don't buy this, it's only about violence and not about sex. If rape is not about sex at all, how does the man get hard to perpetrate rape? Think about that one grasshopper. I understand there are some nonsexual adrenaline rush situations where a man can get hard, but what I don't understand is why choose “sex” as your particular brand of violence if you don't want to have sex? You can just as effectively terrorize a woman physically and violently without it. It's just a pat phrase that no one really thinks about. Sure it's about violence, but it's not only about it in most cases.

For me It wasn't a stranger. It was someone I was dating, I said no and I meant no. We weren't playing a sex game, and he knew it. I begged him to stop and really tried to get away, by the end I begged him not to stop. It was one of the most intense orgasms of my life and one of the most erotic experiences of my life.

I really tried to work up the "proper victim response" over it. I tried to be upset about it after the fact. But I never felt like a victim over it. He and I had been in a relationship. He'd already seen me naked, and we continued to be in a relationship. It just didn't register on the trauma scale. Eventually I gave up trying to get negatively worked up about it, and the memory was used as a masturbatory fantasy for months. (please understand, I never thought what he did was "morally right" or “legally okay” but it didn't make any difference to my experience of it.)

In my current relationship there is blanket consent, and not just for spanking or other punishment, but for anything. Sex included. So if I say no and mean it, my husband will still have sex with me if he wants it. Those times have been the deepest most fulfilling orgasms. So I think "rape" in this article was the proper word to use.

Because while some are playing a scene or acting out a fantasy, for others, the experience goes deeper and is more real. And it's not an issue of wanting to be raped by just any random person, but by a specific person. Really and truly having no way to escape the situation, but being forced to submit to the experience.

I know this is troubling for many, but I don't see why it should be. After all, consensual nonconsent for spanking is disturbing for many, yet its very common on this site.

I would obviously be traumatized by stranger rape, or even rape by some acquaintance. But with someone I've already had some type of sexual activity with or sex with, it's just hard for me to work up the anguish that I know socially I'm supposed to if it's not brutally violent.

Yes, it's a violation, but it's not always particularly brutal for everyone. And in cases where it isn't, depending on the circumstances and the woman, it's not always the same level of trauma. And in a few, like me, there is no feeling of distress, except maybe distress over not being able to work up the proper level of shame and trauma. And then anger/distress at having my experience classified in ways that it wasn't, just because I'm not in the majority of experiences.

As long as I'm a good girl and get properly freaked out, society smiles on me and pats me on the head and pities me. I don't want to be pitied. While I understand that for some women what happened to me might be traumatic if it happened to them, even with someone they were in an ongoing relationship with, to me it wasn't, and isn't.

For ME what is traumatizing about the act of rape are the following things: Fear of being killed or brutally beaten or tortured, Fear of an STD or pregnancy, shame over being seen naked by someone I don't know, having an intimate nonconsensual act take place with someone I don't know and haven't previously had any intimate acts with before consensually (or these things with someone who is just an acquaintance).

If none of those conditions exist, it doesn't register.

If all this makes me some sort of deviant, for having a different scale by which I gage my own personal trauma, so be it.

For the record also, in case there is misunderstanding. I had rape fantasies way before any actual violation. My fantasies started out rape fantasies and I was never in any way sexually abused by anyone at that time. It's important for me to clarify that because I know that some desperately want to make me a victim that I'm not as a way to explain my “obvious deviance.”

I'm also somewhat confused by people's definitions of rape. Some people define rape as nonconsensual sex. Others seem desperate to define it as random, brutal, having nothing to do with actual sex, not the stuff of wet dreams, and “never met someone who was truly raped who saw it as a positive experience” As if somehow nonconsent isn't really nonconsent if the victim isn't in need of years of therapy afterward.

To me this is like saying that what happened to me must have been legally and morally okay since I wasn't huddled in a corner afterward. Someone claimed that the moment you want it, it is not rape. (I'm not sure I completely agree with this. If someone will have sex with you whether you want it or not and for some reason you happen to want it, how is it not rape in substance if not in form?)

So then are we in agreement that before I wanted it, that it was? Does my experience suddenly become legally or morally okay just because I got lucky and got off?

Louise, you might not be aware of it, but it's actually common for women to experience physical sexual pleasure at the hands of their rapist.

A woman cannot help how her body responds. For many women this is a source of a lot of shame and trauma, especially when an insensitive person who doesn't know anything about rape comes along and assumes that she wasn't really raped and she really must have wanted it. Guess who causes the majority of the shame and trauma? It's the people who say she must react to the violation in a certain way, or ELSE it was OKAY and she wasn't really raped.

She said that she said no, and she meant no, and she struggled and fought and BEGGED him not to but he did anyway. HOW IS THAT NOT RAPE?

It doesn't matter if by the END of it he'd turned her body against her, and It doesn't matter that she wasn't completely destroyed by it because of being in the relationship she was in with him. To say what he did was okay and not rape, is like it's own form of rape.

I had a similar experience happen to me with my first husband. And the most raped I ever felt was when someone tried to tell me I wasn't because I had a very similar response. No real emotional trauma over it, AFTER THE FACT.

I think it's emotionally damaging to a woman to try to make her have a certain type of response to an event because it's seen as the "appropriate" one. And to then punish her by denying the wrongness of the act committed against her when she doesn't.

If there was an ignore feature I would put you on it, but skimming by and reading this I couldn't just not reply.

In this situation, the problem seems to be compounded by the fact that it was someone she was in a relationship with (something else I can identify with), if I'm understanding the post correctly it wasn't until after the fact she wasn't upset. It doesn't mean she didn't start out upset, or truly scared, or didn't MEAN no. To say that she must have meant yes, if she isn't behaving or feeling the way that you think she's "supposed" to feel, is deeply disturbing to me.

She also stated that her only real distress after the fact was over not having the standard response of trauma to it, and that having it DISMISSED as "not rape" just like you just did made her feel like someone was excusing it as morally or legally okay.

I can identify with that. Are you going to tell me I wasn't violated now too? Come on, tell me. TELL ME just because I didn't have to go to the hospital over it, tell me it wasn't rape because my body said yes. When my mouth and my mind said NO!

Tell me it wasn't rape because I loved him and he wasn't a stranger. Tell me that I must have really wanted it, and just been confused about NO because I wasn't distressed after it. Tell me it's not a crime and it was okay because somehow my mind protected me from the trauma.

God, like that's not the excuse every rapist gives. "But, your honor, her body said yes."

The belief that it's not rape if there is an orgasm is so uninformed, I can't believe you can dress yourself unassisted.

Also, don't bring up previous discussions with me about "hunting the guy down" Like the woman who posted, I wasn't attacked by a RANDOM STRANGER. And I can identify with not being able to in any way harm someone you love.

You should really let posts sit for about five minutes before you post them.

I'm crying right now. And maybe it's hormones, but I think it goes a bit deeper. I'm not crying because of what my first husband did to me. I'm crying because somehow you think you have the right to pronounce it as OKAY because I didn't react appropriately.

I'm more hurt by what you just said, than the ACTUAL violation I experienced. Because you just made a pronouncement that it was okay. It wasn't "really" nonconsent if I changed my mind by the end. Wow. I just...wow.

Most rapists would love to have you as their defense attorney.

I never thought I'd have to break out the dictionary for RAPE, but apparently so:

1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

Let me ask you...is there ANYTHING mentioned about the mental state the woman HAS to be in all the way to the end of the act and afterward? No? Then don't reply to things you don't know about and don't deny what someone says happened to them cause it doesn't fit your little mold.

I didn't actually say it was okay. I am simply trying to understand what it is that makes a woman feel sexually aroused by an experience if it is genuinely hateful to her. It's confusing, if you've never been in that situation yourself.

Rape is a very difficult crime to try anyway, because it's generally just the man's word against the woman's, and if she got genuine pleasure out of it in some way then that seems to me to make it hopelessly confusing. How do you ever sort out what is rape and what isn't if you don't actually dislike the experience in the end? I mean, if the man claims that he thought she really wanted it, and if she did find herself getting turned on by it, then doesn't that make it all very complicated?

if a woman is violated against her will, that's straightforward enough, but if she herself has feelings of pleasure about it in some way, then how do you make sense out if it? I always thought that rape was when a woman was forced to have sex against her will, and that she would therefore not be enjoying it. But it all seems to be a lot more complicated than that.

I wasn't denying anything, I was just trying to understand it. If it isn't a hateful experience, then what does make it rape? It is very difficult to understand if you have not been in that situation.

And no rapist could have me as an attorney, because I'm not one. I'm just trying to understand what it is all about. Rape is a great deal more complicated than I ever thought it was. How would a jury in such a case sort out what had happened? I'm just wondering.

Louise

Louise,

Fair enough. I stayed away from the site for a few days because I wasn't sure what your reply would be to that big ol moment of confession of mine (I never thought I would share something so personal), and I honestly wasn't sure if I wanted to see it.

I know that for some women if they have been with a man before and later he rapes her, he knows what her body responds to, so it's a matter of physically recreating those sensations. Not to be crude, but if he ties her up, he can draw this out as long as it takes. Some men who rape WANT to turn a woman's body against her.

Some, it doesn't matter or they want to physically hurt her.

Some women, like me, are wired a little bit differently, and so, in the circumstance I was in with my first husband, my body is already set to respond a certain way to a certain type of activity.

I don't fully understand myself the reasons it sometimes happens with stranger rape. But I'm told it does happen. Some women are just very orgasmic and they can't really help if their body responds. Also, I believe I read somewhere that the fear response in some people triggers very similar physical reactions as arousal, both are an adrenaline rush.

One's mind and will can want one thing, while their body responds a totally different way. I can understand the "you can't rape the willing" line of thinking, but the problem comes in when the body responds differently from the mind and will. It's why I believe a man can be raped by a woman.

However the guy is incapacitated, he can be tied up and physically made to respond. But he might not actually want to have sex with the woman. One might argue that it can't have possibly been that great of a hardship for him. Maybe, maybe not. But people are not general purpose toys for just anyone else to play with.

I can understand where you're coming from. In my case I didn't prosecute. But there was no question that from a legal standpoint what he did to me was against my will and a violation.

As for having sexual pleasure and how that would be handled in court, it's a pretty well known fact that some women DO experience sexual pleasure, their body is turned against them. So from a legal standpoint, it would be tried, not on the basis of how the woman felt by the end of the act, but on the basis that she said no and meant it.

After all, what is in question with rape is consent, not whether or not a woman has an orgasm. (How often do women consent to sex and then not have an orgasm? lol.)

This type of rape where a woman's body responds can be even more upsetting to some women. However, for some, like myself, it being in a marriage with someone I loved (though I really shouldn't have loved him, but it's hard to just turn it off sometimes) I wasn't completely traumatized by the event, though this isn't to say I never felt violated.

There were times in my first marriage where my body was turned against me and no meant no, but he changed it by the end, but I still considered it rape. There were other times when I was afraid to say no. There were a lot of very confusing and complicated things that happened.

There were times when I felt violated afterwards and times when I didn't. There were times I felt violated when I didn't say no (although that could have to do with a fear of saying no.)

I'm sorry I got so irate with you, it just really hit a nerve for me and hurt, but I can appreciate your frame of reference and why you responded in the way that you did initially.

I understand now that when you made that comment you weren't trying to be hurtful or deny anyone's experience. I very much appreciate your tone in your comment and not getting upset with me.

I said some pretty not nice things to you in the last post out of anger, frustration and hurt, and it means a lot that you didn't respond in kind. And I'm sorry for the rude things I said to you.

Zoe

you enjoy the fantasy of being raped yet when i meet women an get involved an mention maybe having a lil "rough sex" i get looked at as a cad!! lol but as far as your quote of "the battle of bodies" that sums up what i want to accomplish i just want to overpower my "victim" an have hot nasty sex

I love this site and naturally there is content within that is not for me, I accept this. I tend to find the site refreshingly honest and informative so I am saddened by the abuse of the word and meaning of the word rape. On a site and in an article that claims not to condone abuse in any form.

As a woman who endured a 4 hour abusive session including vaginal and anal rape at knifepoint aged 12 I find it more bewildering how a victim of this heinous and illegal crime can abuse this word. Rape with consent is not possible.

Freedom

What a beautiful word. Thank you for reminding me of it. I feel it should be used more often and explains my desires exactly. I adore it ( and him ) when my husband ravishes me!

A very important and significant point has been made. The point of the original post was not in defending the descriptions of women's rape fantacies but in discussing such desires that exist and men receive requests from partners to provide rough (rapish) sex.

This is a difficult concept for some and possibly shocking to receive (as I can atest to receiving said request from a partner). It seems to be a healthy extension of female sexuality but can be mis-interpreted by the male partner. The first time I had received said request I was shocked (a little hurt) that she wanted psuedo-violent psuedo-antonamous (sp?) sex (considering the idea is to imagine being raped, but not actually being raped, so she is not thinking of her partner but of a miscellaneous other).

Again, partner communication is so important in a situation like this.

There are two very distinct aspects of my girl that make for one hell of a paradox.

First, when she was younger, she was raped. Ultimately, it has lead to some significant issues for her insofar as insecurity and thinking of herself as somehow tainted. Naturally, as I care very deeply for her, I reassure her that this is not the case and that she is a wonderful woman who is worth far more than she can ever imagine.

Then, the flip side. In bed, she loves to be dominated. The term "rape" has never been broached, and hopefully it never will because I am personally uncomfortable with it, but the extent of male dominance/her own submission she craves is essentially what the boss describes in this article. She is happiest for me to use her for my own pleasure and has been explicit in telling me this.

This paradox is quite puzzling to me. Despite being the victim of a violent and traumatic rape, she still desires a significant level of helplessness.