I'm very much enjoying your contributions to the site, Dee.

… the reaction of many Taken In Hand women is revulsion. It is not that they think that there is anything wrong with such a man, it is merely a visceral turn-off for them. … most Taken In Hand women are looking for a purely dominant man, and will run as fast as possible in the opposite direction if they get the idea that the man they love has a submissive side.

I'll be interested to see how many women respondents feel like you.

And I also don't see how such men expect to get much joy from this website, either, since it is about relationships in which the man is totally dominant.

Take it easy! I get a lot of joy (bittersweet!) from it and I don't know how dominant I am/could become. Not all of us are as clear and firm in our knowledge of our own desires and capacities as you clearly are. If you've read my contributions, it must have been painful to you – obviously I'm far from being completely dominant, or I'd have discovered the fact long ago and been living accordingly. All I know is that I have a dominance muscle that is sadly underused. I don't know either how much of a submissive side my wife has. I don't even know if I could live as a switch – but I do know that I've pondered the Spencer Plan (which, for readers who don't know, is a mutual spanking system for couples) as a serious alternative to domestic confusion and frustration.

OK, Dee, so you're never gonna date me, and I'll have to live with that. But I'm not going to give up this site, and anyway, I was here before you!

Yours teasingly

I agree with LadyK. I could be friends with a man with submissive tendencies. I just could never be sexually attracted to him.

Hmmm, perhaps I should clarify what I meant by 'revulsion' here: it's not that I would find a submissive man himself repulsive; I'm sure there are many nice guys like that. What I meant was mostly what some other posters said: that I would be repulsed by the idea of me being in a sexual relationship with a guy who had any submissive streak in him. And if I were already in a marriage with a man whom I took to be dominant - and then we found out that he had a submissive side - I would be horribly crushed by that realization, and I would be out of that relationship quicker than you could say the word 'switch.'

But I will add that I also don't particularly enjoy hearing about sexual or romantic activities that involve men 'submitting' to women. The whole reason I find MaleDom/femsub relationships so appealing is that for me there's a natural connection between masculinity and dominance, and femininity and surrender. From that view, a femdomme/malesub relationship is the very *opposite* of what I find most natural and appealing - so it does squick me a bit to hear about it. Even though I would uphold anyone's right to follow their heart in this, that does not mean that I have to find it appealing, or even that I want to encounter vivid descriptions of what it involves. (I guess maybe that's similar to folks who support anyone's right to be gay, but who still don't really want to hear the intimate details of gay sex.)

To Theo: Thank you for your comments; but I'm a bit puzzled in that it seems you took them to be directed at you...? Let me assure you they were not; I originally posted this as a comment on another topic in the Forum. The reason that I think my attitude towards 'switching' is common among submissive women is partly that I have heard many similar comments elsewhere - and partly because that's what makes a woman a submissive instead of a 'switch.'

And what I meant by someone who's a switch not finding much 'joy' here at Taken In Hand - it's just that this is pretty obviously a site about male dominance in a relationship, rather than any kind of switching. That doesn't mean that the articles and posts here would never be of interest to someone who switches - indeed, I'd assume that much of it would be, since the site owner has created Taken In Hand as one of the more intelligent and insightful websites around. But the articles here do reflect the ideal of masculine dominion, so it won't be very satisfying to someone who is looking for articles that are specifically about switching.

What J said about 'strength of character' is relevant; see this article for more on this.

- Dee

I'm not repulsed by the idea of a man who switches, I just don't want to be in a relationship with one. It would be a total turn-off and a disaster for me. Whether it's true that most men who are dominant also long to be spanked I couldn't say, but it is certainly not true in my husband's case. His interest in spanking developed because of my need for it, he had no personal interest in it before he knew me, and he certainly has absolutely no interest in being the spankee.

A Taken In Hand relationship is about more than spanking anyway. I used to think that it was just the spanking I wanted, but it wasn't. It's the idea of being submissive that is the real turn-on, and frankly I don't see how being submissive is something you can take turns at in a relationship, not if you want it to be real, as it is in a Taken In Hand relationship. If it's just a game then sure you can take turns, but if you want something more than that then it wouldn't work.

But I do not find the idea of switching repellent generally. I used to know a man who was a transvestite. He was happily married, and his wife had no problem at all with his tranvsestism, it gave them an interest in common, because they used to go shopping for clothes together, and when he was done up as a woman he looked absolutely stunning. I was very happy for both of them, but personally I would have hated such a relationship. This is not hostility towards transvestites, it's just something I would personally find a turn-off. There's a big difference between not wanting something for yourself and being intolerant towards other people wanting it.

If a man is a switcher that's fine, but he needs to find someone who is also a switcher, and frankly I don't think he'll find many such women on this website.

Dee, if you're in a relationship with one dominant man or one you turned on to taking you in hand, you're just not seeing the whole picture. I've been speaking with and having experiences with men for 5 years. That's probably close to 1500 different men who have approached me for conversation not to mention spanking play. There are men who identify as dominant and are dominant but they also have an occasional urge to switch. I don't think this makes them less dominant. It just means they have an alternate side to their personalities. And trust me..you would NOT pick up on it. They hide it extremely well, and many have sworn me to silence.

When I say "your loss" and that men who combine dominance and submission in their personalities are sexy, I'm saying that it's too bad you don't realize that there is no bleed-through. You get into a situation with a switch male, and if he is the dominant, you won't be able to tell at all that he switches. He may be at least as or even MORE forceful than a "pure dominant." And he could take your breath away - if you let him.

But since you won't, women like me get the benefit of these wonderful men. And yes, it is your loss. Did you know that lots of men are dominant with one woman and submissive with another? You don't even have to be a switch, to love one.

By the way, my husband insisted for almost 5 years that he would never switch with me. Then one night he wanted a spanking. I hope you can handle it and not push the guy out of your life if you should get a similar surprise.

Let's face it: in the end ALL of this is nothing but a sexy game. Call it what you will, it doesn't put bread on the table, it doesn't put a roof over your head, it doesn't raise your kids, it doesn't save your life when you are sick. When the really tough stuff about life hits the fan, that's when you find out whether you are with a real man. And plenty of switches measure up...just like the super race of "alpha males."

What I find slightly disconcerting about your comment is that you seem to feel that it is quite all right for a man to be cheating on his wife or partner with another woman in order to get to play a submissive role.

Most of the people on this website, as far as I can judge, are either in exclusive relationships themselves, or hope to be. I don't know if there are many women here who would be happy for their husband or partner to be seeing another woman in order to fulfill his submissive inclinations, if any, but I am certainly not one of them.

I mean, I've no objection to my husband, for instance, ogling women's beach volleyball players, that's perfectly understandable, I do a certain amount of ogling myself, but that's different from him actually wanting to do something of an intimate nature with another woman. That I would not be happy about!

It may all be a sexy game, but it's not a game I'd want my husband playing with anyone else.

To Anonymous Taken In Hand Reader:

I'm puzzled what you could mean by saying that "in switchland there is more honesty" - when you yourself have told us several times now how often male 'switches' will lie to their partners while trying to hide their submissive side. Do you mean that switches are honest with other switches, and it's only other people that they lie to - like their wives? That hardly sounds like you're offering a ringing endorsement of their integrity. Nor is it obvious how that sort of selective 'honesty' would earn any genuine 'respect.'

You keep trying to raise the spectre that our dominant men are "really" switches who are lying to us all the time - but only because they are being unfairly oppressed and prevented from being honest, by us bossy submissive women.

I don't buy it. First of all, surveys show that the majority of men lean towards dominant sexual tendencies, if they lean in any direction at all. If that's true in general, then I'd say it would be much more the case among men who actually label themselves as dominant. (How effective they are at being dominant is another question; but at least they're unlikely to be part-time submissives.) You may have a skewed view of how common it is for men to be switches versus dominant, if you're engaged in much of the BDSM 'play' scene. 'Playing' is a common thing among switches, yes; but the dominant men we're mainly talking about here are not out there 'playing' at dominance games. Rather, they're engaged in building a loving, male-dominated romantic relationship with one special woman.

Secondly, nobody can force another person to be dishonest. That includes women who are involved with male switches who are lying to them. If you value your integrity, then you'll be honest with your partner - even if it causes them to leave. (If a man is really a switch, then he's likely to only be happy with another switch, anyway; so he should consider leaving.)

Thirdly, the fact that sexually submissive women have certain innate and erotic tendencies and inalienable desires that we seek to fulfill should not be regarded as 'oppressing' anyone - provided only that we make sure our relationships are honest and consensual, and that we let others likewise pursue their own path to fulfillment.

Most egregiously, to try and label it TFTB ('Topping From The Bottom') just because a submissive woman will accept nothing but a dominant man as a partner is just ludicrous. It's not as if we're going out and finding male switches and then cracking the whip to try and make them behave like dominant men. On the contrary, we're simply aiming to avoid them. We're only too happy to let the switches go do their own thing with someone else; while we go about the business of trying to find the dominant alpha males that we need to love.

But if you want to think of it as me acting like the 'top banana' or TFTB or alpha female or whatever - fine, go ahead. I never said I was "submissive" in all things. I've said quite explicitly that I'm only sexually submissive - and only with dominant men. Being that I'm such an alpha female, I have any number of demands to make of any man that I would get into a loving relationship with. One is that I insist upon a man with integrity. That doesn't mean that he has to tell me every secret of his soul; because I also like a little mystery. But it does mean that he would not lie to me.

Your repeated (and repeated!) attempts to suggest that dominant men are lying to us all the time - and there's no way we'll ever really know for sure - sounds like a rather obvious effort to undermine our trust in the dominant alpha male. But here's a news flash: a man could be lying about anything - not just about how dominant he is. I'd be much more worried about the possibility that he has been badly abusive to women, and is lying about that, than him lying about being dominant. But since I'm a very good judge of character, and since I think honesty and integrity are among the easiest character traits to assess, I don't usually worry about any of that. (Plus, I can spot a fake 'Dom' pretty quickly, too.)

Of course, you're right that I will never know what I'm missing by so persistently refusing something that I would never, ever want. But then, I'm also missing out on experiencing the taste of rancid limburger cheese, and how it would feel to have tarantulas crawling on my eyelids. There are any number of things that I really don't mind "missing out" on, and sex with a submissive man is near the top of that list. Finally, let me say that I'm quite tickled to be called "The Submissive Goddess." (Perhaps I'll just start going by the initials 'TSG.')

Divinely,
Dee

Louise, I fully understand that not everyone would want to go to a spanking party. But it's not infidelity if both partners are aware of what's going on and agree to it (without coercion or emotional blackmail). So actually, my relationship is no different in that it is a mutually satisfying loving relationship, in which the spanking done with others is out in the open and not being done on the sly.

That's fine, I have no problem with that,if you and your partner are happy like that. But the gist of your recent comments seems to me to have been that this is how everybody should feel, and it isn't. Not everybody is a switcher, and not everybody wants to be. My own sexual temperament has always been submissive, I have never felt the slightest bit like taking the dominant role, ever.

I can understand that you perhaps have some difficulty with the nature of this website, because I did myself when I originally found it. My initial reaction was quite hostile, I was thrown into confusion by the notion that here were people living the way I'd always fantasised about living. I was contemptuous of the idea that a woman would, in reality allow a man to tell her what to do, make decisions etc, because nobody lives like that nowadays, or so I thought.

That at any rate is what I thought with the surface of my mind, but underneath other things were going on, and I soon had to realise that this was what I really wanted for myself. I didn't think it was possible, because I didn't think my husband would be able to do it, not as a permanent thing rather than just as a sex game. As it turns out, I underestimated him, he took to it with surprising ease, and seems very happy with the situation.

Now, I have absolutely no problem with you wanting to do spanking just as a sex game, switching, spanking parties all the rest of it -- that suits you, that's great. But I have discovered that for myself it's about more than that, it's more than a game, and it goes deeper than that. Not as deep for me as it is for some of the people on this site, because I'm not a very deep sort of person, but deep enough to make it somewhat different to your experience.

Some people are switchers, some aren't. You are, I'm not. Try to understand that not everybody is the same as you.

Yes, the trouble is, you see, that to me it would not be a tiny matter. To you, spanking is just a sex game, but to me it is more than that. I might continue to love my husband if he suddenly announced that he wanted to be spanked, but I am afraid it would have a very bad effect on our sex life, and therefore ultimately on our whole relationship.

We have always had a pretty good sex life, but since embarking on a Taken In Hand relationship it has got even better. There used to be occasions in the past when my husband would want sex and I just didn't feel like it. Usually I would go along with him, unless I was really feeling ill or something, not because I thought he had a right to have sex with me whenever he felt like it regardless of what I wanted, I didn't and I still don't think that, but because I didn't want to hurt him by rejecting him. I found that often I would get into the mood as we started doing it anyway.

However, since we started having a Taken In Hand relationship I have found that there is never an occasion when he wants sex when I don't feel like it too; I seem to be in a mild state of sexual arousal virtually all the time when he is around – it's fantastic. I really, really like feeling like this, and it is this feeling that I think would be destroyed if he suddenly announced an interest in being spanked. The sexual feeling and the submissive feeling have always been intertwined with me – I can't have one without the other – and the submissive feeling that is essential for sexual arousal in me would simply be destroyed, possibly permanently, if he wanted to be spanked. It would ruin our sex life. I need to feel submissive for sexual arousal, and I couldn't feel submissive to my husband in those circumstances. Sexual feelings are something we're stuck with, and I'm sorry, but I do not think a good sex life is a tiny matter, it is an absolutely vital component of a good relationship.

To ATIHR:

Well, I would obviously agree that 'switches' who are honest about being switches are more honest than switches who lie and try to hide that fact from their wives. Indeed, that's just tautological, so I hardly see the point of saying it. I would encourage all switches to be perfectly honest about their inclinations, especially with their mates, no matter what the consequences of that honesty might be. Because whatever the result is, it cannot be as bad as living a lie, and misleading a person you love into also living that lie. That will ultimately destroy one's integrity and eat away at one's soul.

The longer a male switch keeps lying to his submissive wife, the more of her life he is stealing from her. Because he is conniving her into wasting her precious years and her romantic love on a man with whom she is sexually incompatible, and with whom she would probably choose not to be with, if only she knew the truth about him. That is not fair to do to anyone, least of all someone you profess to love and care about.

This is an issue of integrity, and there is no excuse for a male switch lying to his wife about something so central to their relationship as his sexual inclinations. For you to try and shift the burden of blame onto the submissive wife, who has every right to want and expect a purely dominant man to love, is absurd and hypocritical. Her switch husband is not being 'oppressed' by her submissive desire for a dominant man; rather, they are both being oppressed by his lack of integrity.

I'm glad you raised the scenario of a married couple, and the disruption this might cause in their marriage; while this is not my own situation, it is an issue worth considering. I have several thoughts on this.

First, I would say that a truly dominant man is not going to suddenly "change" into a guy who's part submissive. If a guy finds out he's a switch, then I'd say he was always a switch - the submissive aspect was just a latent desire that had not yet surfaced. (This is similar to the case with bisexual married men. A man doesn't just 'change' from being 'straight' to gay or bisexual; if he discovers that he's bisexual, it likely means that those tendencies were buried in his subconscious psyche for years. What 'changes' there is not his sexual orientation per se, but rather the dynamic balance of the various aspects and expressions of that; which sides of his sexuality come to the fore at which time in his life.)

So what we're really considering here is a marriage that was entered into based upon a mistake regarding their presumed sexual compatibility - an innocent mistake, perhaps - but a mistake nevertheless. Both he and his submissive wife thought he was dominant, and they were wrong. Now they've found out that he's a switch, and hence not really compatible with her submissive desire for a truly dominant man. So now what? What happens next cannot be prescribed by me or anyone else, because it depends upon the couple in question, as regards their own hierarchy of values, and what priority their sexual compatibility has in that hierarchy. But I can speak for myself, so I'll do that.

Earlier you wrote:
"Let's face it: in the end ALL of this is nothing but a sexy game. Call it what you will, it doesn't put bread on the table, it doesn't put a roof over your head, it doesn't raise your kids, it doesn't save your life when you are sick."

I could not disagree more with the sentiment expressed there. For me, my sexual submission to a dominant man is not just "a sexy game" - it is at the very core of my being, it defines who I am as a woman. (Not as an entire person, but definitely as a woman.) What I desire out of a committed relationship or marriage is not somebody to support me monetarily, not somebody to "raise my kids," not somebody to hold my hand when I'm sick, etc. What I want is a man whose strength and dominance fill me with passion, desire, and awe; what I want is for my femininity to be powerfully conquered by his masculinity; what I want is the sublime erotic and spiritual bliss that comes only out of this union of extreme opposites, wherein I can worship him as a priestess devoted to her god. And that is all that I have ever wanted out of marriage.

And because that is my highest priority in marriage, I have been unwilling to settle for anything less; so I'm still single. I have always been wary of getting trapped in unhappy wedlock, so I have endeavored to ensure that I don't have to depend on a man for anything else, other than romantic love. That means that I can support myself, and I will not be tied down by children, or a mortgage, or any of the other seemingly irrelevant things that go along with marriage in some people's eyes. I'm willing to sacrifice all those lesser things for my single overriding marital priority of finding erotic romantic bliss with a compatible and truly dominant man. And I'm a pretty good judge of character and dominance, like I said. That doesn't mean that it's impossible for me to be mistaken, of course; but I think the scenario that you raised (later finding out your husband is a switch) is extremely unlikely in my case, and also for most sexually submissive women. But let's consider what would happen in that improbable event.

Quote: "In a moment, he's tumbled from being the god you adore and worship to being the lowest of the low, the kind of man you wouldn't 'let within kissing distance of you.' "

Yes, that's a pretty accurate description of how I would feel in the very unlikely case that I found out my mate was really a switch. It would be a crushing, devastating blow. It would mean the end of the marriage, and my taking up the quest of finding another man to love. I would not have children with him, because I have never wanted to have children. But when you say this: "Maybe you actually are in love with him and have a life together" - you seem to be ignoring the fact that all of that would already be in the past tense, the instant that I discovered that he's a switch. I would no longer be in love with him, because he's not a dominant man; and the life we had built together would suddenly be revealed as a complete sham.

I see no reason whatsoever for trying to salvage anything there. That would simply be a living hell; better to put an end to it. I would have lost all respect for him as a man, once his 'masculinity' was revealed as nothing but an an illusion. And the fact that I had ever 'submitted' to him would seem shameful and contemptible to me. (Indeed, it's one of the very few ways in which I can imagine feeling totally shamed; even though it was a totally innocent mistake on my part. Even if I were raped in a sewer by a diseased psychopathic monster, I would not be ashamed the way I would be if I found out the man I had submitted myself to turned out to be a switch.) If you cannot understand this reaction on my part, then I suggest that you don't quite appreciate the extreme vulnerability that is brought about in the psyche of a woman who deeply surrenders herself to a dominant man.

Quote: "And maybe he wouldn't be too happy, knowing how you feel about the weaklings who switch, to have to tell you that now he is among their number. So now he's going to have to throw a whole marriage over, hurt the children, ruin both of you financially, because he felt like getting his ass slapped?"

Well, it certainly does sound pretty terrible; I think we're agreed on that. But the difference is that you seem to feel that my inevitable reaction to the situation might justify him lying to me. Again, I disagree thoroughly. I can understand why he would not want to tell me he's a switch, especially if he loves me, and we have built a life together, etc. But the fact that he does not want to be honest with me is still no excuse for lying. If lying were justified any time somebody wanted to avoid the consequences that honesty would entail - then lying would be justified all the time. That's why people lie, because they don't want to face the consequences. And the difference between honest people and liars is that the former realize that their integrity (and hence the obligation to be honest) overrides their desire to avoid unhappy consequences.

Even if there are children and mortagages involved, one must be honest with one's spouse. Once the truth has come out, various options can be discussed and evaluated in light of both partners' priorities. Those options might include everything from divorce, to staying together in a sham marriage (for the childrens' sake), to an open marriage wherein the spouses remain close friends but are now free to seek romantic involvements elsewhere. So, yes - it's a catastrophe of major proportions. But catastrophes can and do happen for many reasons, and many or most marriages end for reasons far more trivial than this scenario of profound sexual incompatibility. And until the issue is discussed honestly and openly, neither party is going to be able to move on, and resume living an authentic life.

Quote: "Dee, if that's the priority and that is the decision you would come to in such a situation then not only are you the oppressor but your priorities about what is a worthwhile relationship are in pretty sad shape."

I think it's clear that we all have different priorities regarding life, marriage, and everything else. For me, nothing is more important than my religion; and one of the ways that spirituality expresses itself is sexually, in my erotic surrender to a loving dominant male. No other aspect of a romantic relationship is even a tiny fraction as important to me as the issue of sexual compatibility. And there is simply no way for me, as a sexually submissive woman, to be compatible with anyone other than a fully masculine, sexually dominant man. It seems to me that you are either unwilling to acknowledge and accept my own innate sexual inclinations, or else are trying to minimize their importance by imposing your own scheme of priorities over and above my own. And in doing this, you're still claiming that I'm the one seeking to "oppress" other people???

Quote: "If indeed we care about marital harmony on this site then this is a serious can of worms we'd better address."

I do think these are important issues, and I'm glad you raised them. But there are many other things that can destroy a marriage, most of which are not nearly the same magnitude as sexual incompatibility. I think it's useful to compare the scenario in question (that of a submissive woman's husband discovering that he's a switch) with other sorts of tragedies that can befall a marriage. Suppose that the man were diagnosed with penile or testicular cancer, and his genitals were surgically amputated, and their sex life was suddenly gone. That's sort of on the same scale as finding out that he's a switch. (But in this case, even though their romantic relationship is now at an end, their past romance together would not be a sham. Their memories of that would still be real and precious and meaningful, even if they now part ways due to the inability of the man to have sex. The wife would not go through the pain and shame of discovering that she had unwittingly surrendered her cherished femininity to a man with a submissive streak.) Similar considerations would hold if he were in an accident and paralyzed from the neck down, or suffered irreversible major brain damage, or various other tragic scenarios.

In all those cases, the wife has a very difficult decision to make. He is no longer the man he once was, and she can no longer surrender to him. She must judge whether her marital commitment outweighs the tragedy of the current circumstances, or whether it's time for them both to acknowledge that what they once had is irretrievably lost, and move on. Speaking for myself, I would probably not remain in a marriage with a man with whom sex was impossible; because the erotic-spiritual romance is the entire reason for the marriage in the first place. But I would undoubtedly remain good friends, as I have with all my former boyfriends. And I would understand if another woman had other priorities and chose to preserve their life together, and give their children a better home, as opposed to leaving to pursue her romantic passions. So, it seems to me that I am the one who is fully willing to let others follow their own path to fulfillment; and you are the one trying to dictate their values and priorities for them.

- Dee

I would never tell anyone who or what they should or should not be attracted to. That is a very personal thing for everyone here. I think that people are missing something. I am not so one dimensional that I consider myself submissive all the time. I am mostly submissive that is true, but I have times when I am dominant. There are areas of running the house for instance that I am dominant in our relationship. He could always trump my decisions I suppose, but it would be a waste of time and life for the most part because I know more about these things that him in general. I know more about our schedule for instance. I tell him what we are doing and when. He asks ME before making plans so we do not end up with a conflict in our schedule. I do not feel it necessary for him to be dominant all the time. I think that would be asking too much. My husband just does not feel dominant all the time and I do not feel submissive all the time. My husband is dominant, and I respect him as the head of the household. He does not feel the need to walk around with his feathers ruffling all the time.

Even though I am submissive, it can be extremely exciting for me and him when I am dominant in bed. It is a switch for us because in general he is the one who is dominant, even in bed. There is a dominant power in me; I can tap into it. Being sexually aggressive is exciting. Although it is not something that I would want all the time, I enjoy the freedom of choosing to be dominant sometimes. For me that does not in any way diminish my husband's dominance. I find him exciting even though he lets me dominate him sometimes. He is not a wimp or a wuss.

I would not be repulsed by him asking to experiment with being on the spanking end. We have tried to switch and I am hopeless at it. I giggle and laugh. I feel totally ridiculous! We have found out that neither of us is turned on at all by switching for spanking. I do not feel dominant spanking him and he does not feel in the least bit submissive. My husband wanting to try switching did not make me lose any respect for him and I was not in the least bit less attracted to him. It was sexually experimenting and in the end we learned more about each other. We had fun and we passed it off as not for us, at least not now. We laughed and it was connecting because it was such an open way of being together. I am learning to never say never in this lifestyle. I am finding that we are trying things we never thought we would, and happily we are turning out ok. Our relationship is resilient and it is wonderful.

Since we changed our marriage, making my husband the head of the household, our communication is so much better. Because of this we feel more freedom to try new things. It is not threatening to either of us and we are finding even when the experiment does not work we learn more about ourselves and our relationship. For me it is not so simple to say, he has to be dominant all the time, it is just not a reality for us. It is safe for both of us to express an interest or curiosity in something. We may not try it or we may, but in the end we are learning that we can indeed grow from the situation.

Take care everyone,
Tevemer