Good heavens, has our culture become so "nannified" that every author or authoress who exposits on sexual subject matter must continually remind his/her Gentle Readers (who are, after all, supposed to be consenting adults who, presumably, have some semblance of a brain) about condom use, safewords and other such safety precautions.

Furthermore, I had the distinct impression that the "rape" or, if you prefer, consensual non-consent, scenarios as described by this authoress were being used within the context of a long-term, monogamous relationship. Indeed, this entire site, "Taken In Hand," appears to operate from within the context of an established relationship and that the "non-consent" is part of that ongoing and, ultimately, consensual relationship.

What you're doing is irresponsible pure and simple. Not once is your entire article did you mention consent or having a safeword. I have to question the motives of anyone, man or woman, who advocates playing hardcore rape scenes without a safeword. And where's the "wear a condom"? What about AIDS? Remember: Safe, Sane and Consensual?

Yall should check your definitions before even discussing such a subject. Try this URL: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rape and this URL: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ravish and this URL: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forced and this URL: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=enrapture and this URL: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=taken.

Note in particular, that not all definitions of rape involve a lack of consent. Force does not needfully imply lack of consent. The connotations of the word in our culture have subjugated several of these meanings, yet that does not lessen the validity of the denotations. The legal definition, while useful for a woman wishing to prosecute a man, or a man in fear of prosecution, is not the only definition of the word. Note in particular also the following trail: rape-ravish-enrapture.

Before anyone attacks the article, they should note that their knowledge of the definitions involved are likely incomplete! How many of you speaking against the article actually looked up the definitions? How many of you presume that you know what a word means merely based upon your personal context?

That rant aside, my context follows: I am a man, and have had fantasies of 'controlling' or 'dominating' or 'ENRAPTURING' (or pick another if you prefer) women since long before I had any sexual interests. Aspects of my ideal life have been described in many articles on this site. I had a womanfriend for 4 years, and asked her to marry me last Christmas. She said yes, and plans were set for next August. It took a long time to trust anyone with those fantasies. In fact, it took me roughly 4 years to share the full extent and nature (we tried little bits at a time) of those fantasies with my love.

When she cracked open my shell, she didn't like what she found. She took off the ring. She claims to love me, but not that part of me (a specific behaviour) which she only recently uncovered. It is all very uncomfortable, and confusing, and hurtful, and unresolved. Ideally we would come to some understanding, because I really don't want anyone but her! For what it is worth.

This is just mean. Poor spelling can be because English is not someone's first language, and I have found that on the net, because it is a global village this is mostly the case. I think it is sad that people may fear posting on an English website because they may spell something wrong or get the grammar mixed up. People who can not spell may have a lot of intelligent ideas to offer. I think it is very brave to offer ideas even when you may fear getting the syntax or spelling wrong. English is a terrible language to learn how to spell.

Besides I am a terrible speller. Spelling has nothing to do with your level of education or your intelligence. A hint for people who have trouble with spelling: If you have a word processor that can edit in English you can use that to help you edit your post. I write my reply in the "reply" box. Then I cut it and paste it to my word processor. I correct the spelling and cut and paste it back. I had a high school teacher who told me that I would need to hire a good secretary to edit my spelling! Luckily word processors have made editing my own spelling quite easy.

Take care,
Tev

Morrigan, I can't quite think how to make it more clear that I was talking only about doing something the woman wants. If that is not what it means to be consenting, I don't know what is.

However, I appreciate your concern and would be more than willing to change my wording if I could think of how to express what I have expressed in a form that would not lead anyone to misunderstand. To that end, if you have a better idea of how to convey what I was trying to convey, I'd be very grateful to receive it. I am very open to criticism, I just have not come up with a better word to use.

The definition of rape is that is unwelcomed. If it's welcomed, calling it rape becomes problematic. Do you mean rape play? Because obviously if you were attacked by a man on the street you would probably object to it and would therefore be traumatized by the event. Not objecting to it is highly unusual although I suppose it could happen.

I guess what I'm saying is that the realm of the imagination and the world of playful dominace and submission roles are one thing and the actual act is another thing entirely. If something is defined by it's inherrent violence and use of unwelcomed force, it cannot be defined as rape when the seriousness of these elements are removed from the situation. Maybe your views on this would be more clear to me if I read further into your website but I'm lazy. I'm just wondering where you stand on this differentiation.
Marie

Who you are can only be defined by yourself, and what others think may only be because of a break in communication either from the writer or the reader. That Rom guy tainted this, like one drop of poison, just enough to divert all attention from the subject to himself and his beliefs, which are classic attempts to put his views on others unsolicited. I am guessing you are confindent in yourself enough to see through this and get back to the real reason you even entertained this site.

I have had many 'bad' fantasies.

Being tied up and toyed with... group sex... voyerism...

Now, both my husband and I agree that to playout some of these as they are would ruin our relationship, so we have worked out how to feed the need without ending up divorced.

We have purchased various cuffs, tie-downs, bondage tape etc... and tying me up to the point where I am helpless drives husband crosseyed as it is one of his fantasies too. ((we always have safety gear around in case something goes wrong)).

Group sex can be achieved by husband with hands full of vibrators. YAY!

Voyerism has me all blindfolded and husband taking photos with digital camera. After we look at the pictures we can safely delete. But it is so much fun.

I think that in bedroom play - there is always a way to get what you need, or a good substitute.

Sometimes it is good to be bad!

Cheers,

Suzette
"But sun it is not, when you say it is not, And the moon changes even as your mind: What you will have it names, even that it is, And so it shall be still, for Katharine."

I've been reading the comments and although there are many women who want to be raped but don't want the violence, I don't fit into that category.I'm a little bit more to the extreme. (Just a quick statement before I spill my guts...I have no history of mental illness or psychotic episodes)I'm a 27 yr. old mother of 2 young children, regular church-goer and Christian, and I have an EXTREME desire to be "fantasy" raped. My husband has done this for me by request but it doesn't give me the "high" of an actual rape that I desire. It's been set up so that he has been violent and unexpected but it just wasn't fulfilling. In my opinion, it has nothing to do with my spirituality...it has everything to do with a sexual high that I can't get through consensual sex with my husband.

I crave a certain amount of violence with submission, i.e., smacked, beaten, having a gun to my head, being tied up for days and used as a sex toy on demand by multiple men/women, etc... and I can't figure out why I desire it so much. At times I've even thought (but would never do) about setting myself up by going to a bar alone at night and have a few drinks, hoping it might happen. I just don't understand why, with my strong belief in Jesus Christ and conservative lifesytle, I am having these fantasies.

All I can say for the men who want to be raped by their women...I definitely agree with those who have stated to be very careful and make sure it's what she wants. Otherwise, it might/will change her emotional feelings for you whether you want them to or not. It might instill fear rather than a feeling of sexual gratification, which, in turn, may reek havoc in your relationship. I've seen it happen with a couple that I know. Take care and thank you for reading my "venting" post.

What a TERRIBLE thing to happen to your daughter. I can hardly imagine how devastating that must have been. I am sure that everyone here agrees with me that that was thoroughly evil. I was raped by a stranger when I was a young student, and that was bad enough. To be gang raped at thirteen must be a million times worse.

That is not what the article was about, as I tried to say at the beginning. The article was about purely consensual interactions. You may not have rape fantasies, but I can assure you, many if not most women do, or have at some time in their lives. Some women (and men) also fantasise about the woman being a slave with no escape, and they live their lives that way. This is also consensual. In both these cases, what we are talking about is very very far from the heinous crime of the same name.

Many rape victims, as well as those who have never been raped, have rape fantasies. For some, it is a way of coming to terms with what happened to them. You should consider the possibility that your own daughter might one day have such fantasies. If she ever reveals this to you and you react as though she is a child of satan speaking evil, you will likely compound the damage. I really hope that doesn't happen.

Before I can continue my comment any further, I feel confident in saying that I agree with the boss's outlook and I understand it. The word rape can be very misleading for many people because most of what's associated with this word is that which we hear about and see on the news. These are always acts of violence apon unwilling victims, and they are just that. I myself have a very fulfilling relationship with my partner of 6 yrs and I enjoy very much my partner's masculinity and I love it when he puts his foot down, so to speak. I trust him completely and when he is sexually aggressive or spanks me at times, it's okay because he is not hurting me emotionally, he is still loving, cherishing, and able to make me feel protected rather than harmed. Of course, in order to experience what I'm talking about, it requires a man and woman to very close to one another and have understanding of each other's needs. Violent rape is completely different. It lacks trust because the rapist is committing this act apon someone unwillingly. It lacks love because the person committing the rape is doing it out of anger or to subdue intense sexual and psychological problems within themselves, the victim serves as on outlet and in the end is left with all the negativity and hate. Despite what most people think, rape is not about the physical harm or the act in itself, it is the emotional harm that causes the most damage in sexual situations that lack trust and love. And that to me is the difference between it being bad or good.

This is crazy. A person who wants to find a reason to rape a woman will read this site and think, "she will really enjoy it if I have forcefull sex with her (i.e.rape) because look at all of these other women". You are giving criminals an excuse. Play out your fantasies in private if you wish, but give other women who have been victimized the respect of not advocating rape.

- concerned student studying Domestic Violence

You might like to read the preceding 236 comments. You will find a number of answers to your concern in those comments.

I wonder why you assume that the women who find this idea erotic have never been raped. That is quite untrue, and when you demonise a perfectly normal fantasy like this, you risk just adding more harm to the rape victim who is unaware that many other rape victims nevertheless have rape fantasies and feels guilty and miserable as a result. If this article and the subsequent discussion does anything, I hope it will help those women to realise that they are not sick or bad and don't need to feel guilty.

Keeping the truth quiet like a dirty secret certainly does not help rape victims!

Everyone in the world has fantasies, whether or not they admit it. I do - and sometimes they scare me. Sometimes, that very fear makes me feel very much alive, although my fantasies seem to be on a much lower, in fact on ground level, to what I've read in this long, long, thread on rape.

To me, the thought of actually being raped in reality leaves, NOT a feeling of being very much alive, but rather one of being emotionless and dead. However, the thought/fantasy of a man WHOM I LOVED VERY MUCH, taking me against my will, i.e. holding my hands above my head and taking his pleasure, does in fact turn me on. But I would only ALLOW, and this is where con'sensual' consent comes into it, a man to do this if I'd given that very consent.

I think what needs to be said here is that the boss, correct me if I'm wrong because there are so many posts here that the main point of the discussion is in danger of being lost, has in fact been raped.

Where is our love and understanding in what she is trying to say, for goodness sake?

I think she is trying to make sense of what happened to her - and not only that, but trying to make other women feel that it is not wrong, per se, to want to fulfil your fantasies - but in a loving and consensual relationship, rather than a brutal and evil act committed non-consensually that should condemn such perpetrators to hell.

The word 'RAPE' actually means to 'BE TAKEN ABUSIVELY AND VIOLENTLY AGAINST YOUR WILL', but it also means 'to ravish', which in it's own terms means 'to charm or delight'.

THE TWO SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED.

Which makes me wonder if perhaps we need to use words other than 'rape' to explain this strange 'CONSENSUAL' desire in both men and women. Maybe, 'Taken In Hand', fits the bill here.

So many of you posting on this thread say how much you love either being spanked or being the spanker. However, if the receiver of the spanking does not con'sensually' agree to this, it is abuse. No more, no less.

Lois Lane.

Just one more thing. (Gosh I feel like Columbo)

I find it amazing that we human beings need such a huge volume of words in order to adequately express ourselves. Even when I think I think I'm doing a good job at getting my point across, I find that my audience often interprets what I'm saying through the filter of their own experience, upbringing and particular emotional state. So, try as each of us may, it's still going to be difficult to share precisely what we mean. Case in point; last night my husband and I had a conversation in the wee hours. I offered a fairly concise and subject specific comment, which he wholeheartedly disagreed with. He then repeated exactly what I had just said as though it was a brand new idea, except he used one different adjective. Ah, just one word, and he felt he was shedding new light on our discussion. When I told him that I had just finished saying that very thing, he replied, "No you didn't, you said..." Repeating not the words I used, but the way he heard the message I was trying to convey. It took another twenty minutes of discussion before both of us were satisfied that we'd been heard. And isn't that the point of these discussions? We need not only to share, but to be heard, understood, validated. (okay, maybe this is more than just one more thing)
I have an image that dwells deeply in my innermost private sanctuary of self. It's been there since the week before my forth birthday. It's an image that has helped to created my idea of sexuality. A small, very observant child, I often watched my older brother disappear into the basement where he opened the root cellar door, took something off a high shelf in darkness, then closed himself into the bathroom for long periods of time. Curious, I took the opportunity to face the boogeyman who lived under the stairs, and the other scary creatures who undoubtedly made their home in shadowy recesses. Trembling I dragged a step stool to the cellar, climbing to the highest step where, terrified, I thrust my hand into the void above my head. My small fingers contacted a thick sheaf of papers which turned out to be erotic pictures. Whoo hoo! (here's where the image gets seared into my brain-told you it can take a lot of words sometimes) Heart beating with fear of what might suddenly reach out to grab me from the darkness, as well as no small amount of anticipation, I clutched my newfound treasure and crept quietly into the brightness of the laundry room. One at a time, I turned the pages of the loosely bound volume, my eyes and mind taking in the vividly graphic images. Nipples on large breasts being pinched by rough male hands; stern faced men pointing as beautiful young women undressed; a whole series of period costumed lords and ladies, the men spanking plump female bottoms, the women's expressions communicating both mock horror and pleasure. I can still smell the mildew every time that picture pops vividly into my mind. Like a pop up on a computer screen, that particular memory tends to be persistent. Years later, I had sad occasion to experience violation. Not rape, but molestation by a friend's dad. These two events most likely are the source of my own desire for being taken when I have sex. I want a romantic, dominant man to simply wrest pleasure from me. Not take it away, but give it to me till I'm breathless with the power of it, via his forceful erotic authority. I don't want rape from a stranger. I do want to be overcome, ravished by the man I love. I want him to be the kind of man who can do that, and wants to sometimes. I also enjoy great heaps and bucket loads of tenderness, so there's a balance of sorts involved here. So on and on I've gone trying to share how these ideas appeal to me. Not to startle, offend or invite or condone crime. Simply in an effort to explain, without guilt, that I like sex to be rough and tumble and allow me complete abandon sometimes. That's enough out of me. the boss, thanks for being brave enough to broach this sticky topic, and allow me the opportunity to feel I may actually be heard.

the boss,
Can you compare the ideas in your response to Theo with the ideas in your "When Rape is a Gift" article?

Is it that "Rape is a Gift" when the relationship is going well, so the man will know the woman really "wants" to be raped, even though she protests. So he exerts his control only when she (and he?) determine the relationship is going well.

But in Theo's case, she really DOES NOT want to have sex when she has a headache, and Theo should know this implies the relationship is not going well because "head-ache" implies "bad relationship". So now he shouldn't exercise control, or perhaps he should exercise a different control, by being more attentive.

Seems confusing.
Could give a man a headache.
A reader

[I moved this comment from Given a choice between two men ... but on second thoughts, this subject should probably be a whole new thread on the readers' forum. - Ed.]

I just wanted to say thank you for this article. I have had fantasies of consensual rape to put it and had in the past felt like I was different. That there was no one out there like me. This makes me feel a lot more comfortable with my desires.
Jayde

*Would not a rose by anyother name smell as sweet* (Shakespeare)

I will only say this: I and a great many other women posting on this board have also been stranger-raped, just as you have, some of us repeatedly. I know your "horror." I have lived through it. But I still crave the sort of rape that is discussed in this article. Crave it with my entire being and I applaud the writer of this article for putting into words my own desires and thoughts and having the courage to post it.

If you are such a nightmare-plagued rape victim, if the horror is still recent in you, by the way, WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU DOING READING THIS MESSAGE BOARD which contains articles that are bound to hurt you and bring back the horrible memories? I am pretty shocked that you would even be here in the first place if just hearing the word rape is so rough and hard for you. I've read this site on and off for years, I know it doesn't advertise heavily, you have to Look Very Hard to find it. So why did you look so very hard to find something that's going to cause you to re-live nightmares?

Maybe you can explain what you are doing here to me, but it seems like extremely destructive behavior to go searching around on the web for this sort of material, especially if your rape experiences are recent. Instead, I suggest you get some supportive counseling, counseling that will teach you how to control the self-destructive urges--I mean that sick behavior of placing yourself with your own hands back into the victim role over and over again--that can be such a big byproduct of stranger rape (been there, done the self-destructo thing too, it's very important for a healthy and happy future life to get a handle on it).

Oui, effectivement.

What happened to you was a foul and horrible thing, and utterly disgusting. But what the people on this site fantasise about happening to them is not what happened to you. I personally am left cold by the whole rape thing, it does nothing for me whatsoever, but the idea of somehow having sex 'forced' upon them seems to be a turn-on for a lot of women.

My experience of fantasies is that you're basically stuck with them. I fantasised about being spanked from an early age, I thought that was pretty weird until I found out how common a fantasy it was. And although it seems pretty odd to me too, the forced sex thing seems to be a common fantasy too. A man who would want to rape a woman in reality is a sick person. A man who would 'rape' a woman in the way that she desires, as women on this thread have described is simply indulging her desires the way my husband indulges mine when he wallops me. It's not the same thing at all. Counselling might be helpful for a woman who has actually been raped, but I seriously doubt it would be of much help for someone who is simply having rape fantasies. If you can find someone willing to indulge your fantasies, you're fortunate, whatever those fantasies might be.

I wrote elsewhere that a man who harms a hair on a woman's head should be punished very severely, and I view any physical hurt as being an entirely different issue. And of course I am a man who has never known what a woman feels being raped. However, I am troubled by this idea that being raped is so terrible. Growing up as a boy and a man, males routinely experience physical violence from other males. Even if a man might prevail much of the time or eventually emerge as a winner, almost every man has been beaten up by a bigger, stronger boy at some point in his life, probably very often.

So if you think rape is bad, try getting beaten up physically (and of course that does happen to both men and women).
I fail to understand how having sex against your will -- as wrong as that is -- can remotely compare to being physically beaten up and bruised by another male. Humiliating? Imagine being a male who is supposed to be strong enough not be a victim, and yet be beaten to a pulp by another male. You want to talk humiliating, on top of the pain and bruises?

So while I do not wish anyone to be ever be injured, and I also do not wish any woman to experience sex unless she wants or agrees in some form, I just cannot stomach this idea that simply having sex is such a horrible thing, even worse than a man being beaten up by another man. It is wrong. It is surely uncomfortable. It is something to be legitimately angry about. Such men should be punished decisively, promptly, reliably, and severely. The woman is NOT to blame.

However, obsessing over it just makes it worse in my view.
This idea that it's the worst thing that a woman could ever go through, I don't think so. Try trading places with a man and get in a bar brawl and get physically beaten up and bruised by another man. Simply having sex that you didn't like having is bad... but not as bad as being a boy beaten up by a bigger boy growing up.

Sometimes you can make things worse by building them up in your mind and turning them into a big deal, when it is healthier not to look at it as the end of the world. A bad thing can become worse by obsessing over it.

I had a friend who talked about his children: When one of his children fell down and scraped his knee, he would say "It's okay, get up," and the child would simply shrug it off. On the other hand, if he made a fuss about it "Oh, are you okay!?? Are you hurt?" then the child would start crying uncontrollably and EXPERIENCE the pain far more deeply, far worse.

Whether you love your husband or not, you don't necessarily feel like sex every time he does. You may be ill, or just very, very tired. Does a wife have an unrestricted right to have sex with her husband? Even if (as is sometimes the case with my husband), he is simply too exhausted to do it? Any man who thinks he has a right to have sex with his wife whenever he feels like it, regardless of her feelings in the matter, doesn't sound to me like a very nice man to be married to. A selfish pig, I would say.

And as for marriage vows meaning that a man has unrestricted right to have sex with his wife, that was not the case even in the days when everyone got married in church, not in England anyway. In 1685, a man was hanged for raping his wife. And nowadays many of us get married in registry offices. I have done this twice, and on neither occasion can I remember the registrar saying anything about my husband having the right to have sex with me whenever he felt like it. And you say that you don't think a man should use violence towards a woman, but what if she refuses to have sex with him and the only way he can make her is by using violence? Is that all right? (sorry if this is too barbed, but it's how I feel)

So, Exploring Man, you don't think that forcible penetration, in and of itself, constitutes 'physical hurt?' If so, your knowledge of the mechanics of sexual intercourse must be rather scant. Furthermore, even if the physical damage from forced intercourse is slight, the emotional scars can be terrible. Clearly you have a hard time putting yourself in the shoes of rape victims, but try to imagine that another person acts in a way that makes it clear that they consider you to be no better that a toy, an instrument to be used. Now imagine that the person who treats you in such a way is your intimate partner, someone who is supposed to love and cherish you. How would such an experience make you feel?

As for your assertion that one's marital vows implicitly include submission to each and every sexual act that one's partner wishes to engage in, this isn't a view that many people would countenance. Yes, spouses have a general right to sex, and long-term refusal of sexual intercourse is a violation of one's marital obligations, but marriage isn't the means by which you gain a sex-slave. Sometimes, your obligation to love and honour your spouse overrides your right to any single instance of sexual expression.

Lastly, I find it rather rich that you counsel rape victims to be more stoical, when you yourself patently fail to be so when it comes to violence against young men.

I was responding to the post 14:11, advsing rape victims not to obsess. The previous post had a different flavor entirely. I found the second one insensitive.

Obviously there's a huge controversy over this. But few have mentioned the practical issues.

There are women who can handle this sort of thing, and there are those who can't. There are also those who can't, but think they can. From a man's perspective, the problem is telling them apart.

"I've always fantasized about being raped" is a bad sign. So is heavy romance novel use. Those are the ones who panic when it gets real.

The kind of woman who likes rough sports and isn't afraid to get dirty or bruised has real potential. Women like that won't freak from a bit of rough play. Find a lover unafraid to wrestle in the dirt, and you've found a jewel.

Hi T. Brownie,

I never gave any details about my attack, never said it was a stranger, never condemmed the people who fantasize about it. You made a lot of assumptions.

What happened to me happened about nine years ago, and it has had a lasting impact on my life. Not because it was overly brutal or excessively violent like some I have heard of, but because it hurt me inside.

I came to this site because my husband and I practice DD. He is definitely in charge in the relationship and I would have it no other way. I love and respect him, same as he does me.

I completely understand wanting to be taken, to be so desired by someone that they just can't help themselves, so to speak. That, in itself, is a form of flattery. But my objection to the article was the use of the word itself and I must thank the great people who responded so eloquantly to your unfortunately impolite response.
I am not condemming anyone for their fantasies. I would, however, advise with some caution before using that word. I'm not here to simply argue semantics, but rape is a loaded word that carries a lot of emotional meaning for some people who have experienced this sort of thing.

Yes, I have been to therapy for years, yes, I have a loving, wonderful husband, and yes, I do still suffer the after-effects of this event almost a decade later. I congratulate you that you were able to recover fully from your ordeal. I still stand by what I said that anyone who knew what I have been through would not use that word.

After reading this article and the replies to it, I have much to say. I think rape is about power. Coming from someone who is infatuated with the subject, women want to feel helpless. They want a part of them being taken away and knowing that they cant stop what is happening. In most cases I've come to learn that women who want "rape" usually have some linkage in their past that made them want this sort of thing. It has to develop from somewhere. It doesn't just manifest on its own. Maybe something of some sort was taken away from you and now you feel it is natural to have your willingness taken away as well. Maybe you've led a very dull or sheltered life and finding something this extreme fascinates you.

Whatever the circumstance, there are a lot of acts labeled wrong and distasteful going on in this world. just because someone desires something not to your liking doesnt mean its wrong. after all, we are talking about consensualism here and what you do with your partner in your own bedroom is your business right? I am a 21 year old girl who has put much thought in the idea of this sort of fantasy for years and years to come. Feel free to post your opinions for I am open minded and will not judge you solely for your differences. To each their own.

Given how hard and fast you had to backpedal in your first paragraph, why didn't it occur to you that you could have chosen a better title for your commentary here? You say 'rape' is not what you actually mean. So don't use the word rape. You're adding to the confusion of idiots the world over. And if you can't think of a word or expression that actually describes what you really mean, maybe you shouldn't be publishing your writing.

Rape is forced sexual experience against a woman's will. If a woman WANTS a forced sex encounter with her husband, etc., how can it be termed rape? The word rape implies without consent.

I do not have rape fantasies, but I do have fantasies of being SEDUCED by my husband. A seduction (esp. a BDSM seduction) can LOOK like rape...but consent is the ticket here. I fantasize being grabbed, held, overpowered, by my husband in a romantic episode. It's not rape, but to an outsider it might APPEAR to be.

I read the boss's article with extreme interest as I have had rape fantasies before and find them highly erotic. I think the difference here is that the woman WANTS to be raped and it is merely a "role play" type of scenario being played out. She loves the idea of being completely out of control and having to do whatever he forces her to do. When I have those rape fantasies it releases me as I am not doing any of those erotic things - he forces me to do it and that relieves me of any responsibility for what I am doing or allowing to be done to me. Being taken forcefully has always been extremely erotic for me, and since I am a submissive sex slave with a master, I am more willing to give him total control over the situation and my body. I think if we look at it as a fantasy role-play, it is easier to understand and is definitely not the same as being "raped". Thank you, the boss, for a very insightful article. My master suggested I read some of the articles on your site and I find them fascinating.

I started reading this out of interest and have quit reading out of frustration.

My husband and I have, over the years, acted out many different fantasies and most of them have come from my little head. When I get an idea for a fantasy I usually write a story describing it and then let him read it. Sometimes we decide to act it out and sometimes it just goes into my box of stories. He has been a doctor taking advantage of his patient; a police officer arresting and then taking advantage of me, and many more things. Of course I would never want my real doctor or a real policeman to do anything like that to me.

I have even written a rape fantasy story, and although we have never had the opportunity to act this one out, I sure hope we can one day. I would never want to be raped for real. I have a friend who was raped and it was not anything I would ever want to go through. But asking the man you love to rape you is not the same thing. To be able to experience the adrenaline rush, put up a fight, and be taken against your will, knowing all the time you are really safe in the hands of the man you love, is an exciting thought to me.

I wish everyone would lay off the boss and quit implying in any way that she is saying rape is ok. I thought she was very clear that she is talking about a man trying to fulfill a desire in his woman at her request.

I've discovered this website 3 days ago. After reading the complete discussion on When rape is a gift. I am finally deciding to post my own contribution. The fact that this discussion was started 1 1/2 years ago does not make it obsolete in my opinion.

First I would like to congratulate you, the boss, on the courage of bringing up this controversial topic with such openness and in such a cultivated way. You stayed remarkably calm even when you answered the most provocative and thoughtless postings.

It was tedious to read through all of the self-appointed preachers' and moralists' stuff, but it was necessary to do this in order to find what interested me: contributions of educated people who, like myself, find the idea of ‘rape’ stimulating.

I did find them, and I am very impressed with the openness of some of the women's statements. But: it is very hard to find a single male writer who shares his experiences! How is that?

So, to you men out there, let me ask you a question:

Is there really nobody who sometimes feels the urge of just TAKING his woman, without asking her permission, without romantic preliminaries? Nobody even who gets turned on by the IDEA of it?

Is the male world really divided into -

1) those exemplary citizens who would under no circumstances ravish their partners, even if they asked them to, because “it is wrong,” and

2) criminal rapists and murderers?

Is there nothing in between? Personally, I can hardly believe it. I suspect that most of the educated males are just too careful to admit they have some darker sides to their personalities as well. To a certain degree I understand this. What I don't understand is why they don't just keep quiet. The hypocrisy of many of the men's contributions in this forum (I wonder why they are even here reading all this!) I find remarkable – and quite annoying, by the way.

This said, I would like to tell my own story, trying to be honest and realizing that I will hardly get any applause for it. It doesn't matter.

My fascination with fantasies of rape has developed in my first long-time relationship with a woman: When my girlfriend told me one day that the idea of being raped was her favourite fantasy, this completely changed our relationship: We started to write each other stories, shared our fantasies... It gave our sex life, which had gotten a little bit dull, an incredible kick! Once ore twice we did a play rape; once or twice I even ‘ravished’ her, meaning I took her by surprise, or when she was evidently not in the mood. She told me later that these were the most exciting times for her...

This is as far as it went, and I hope I do not explicitly have to underline that I would not think of raping a woman in the outside world (I am more the intellectual type anyway, and to get close to a woman I need double assurance that she is really interested in me).

I certainly realized that rape fantasies are not every woman's thing, but I also discovered that some women just don't like the idea that they are responding to it. (Maybe because it doesn't seem to match the image of a today's woman with high self-esteem). Another woman in my life agreed – out of curiosity I believe – to share her fantasies with me. But this was more complicated: her body told me that she got really excited with a rape story, but she absolutely refused to admit it...

This ambivalence (which is clearly described in some women's contributions here) is what fascinates me most: the mind says no, but the body says yes. Why? It is a little drama, a fight – in the brains. A fight, though, that makes the whole thing so much more exciting, at least to some people.

I have been thinking a lot about my own rape fantasies, and I have tried to analyze them because I used to think they were something problematical in my personality (now, for the moment, I have just accepted them).

I have come to believe that my fantasies have nothing to do with hating women. They have nothing to do with violence (apart from getting maybe a little rough in the heat of the action). But they have a lot to do with the difference between man and woman – and the desire to overcome this difference, even if it's only for a moment.

I don't know if I can explain this. I will try.

Women are by nature more careful about sex. They don't give themselves to everybody, and they don't always feel like giving themselves; I guess it's an instinct, because the possible consequences of a pregnancy are much more drastic for the female. Thus it is natural that they are generally more hesitant about it – sometimes even if they physically desire it. Our society, at least in its more conservative form, cultivates this hesitancy.

Now, in a situation where it is clear that the woman basically wants the man, but still resists, the act of ‘rape’ (ravishing, taking, whatever you call it) by the male is nothing but the overcoming of all these blocking factors in a single outburst of sexual energy. The decision, whether or whether not she wants it, is made for her by the man – or should I say by nature?

Speaking of myself: I have never had a stronger feeling of being a man than in those situations where I was allowed to overcome that last bit of resistance in a woman – with her (reluctant, but enthusiastic) agreement. In these moments I felt so animal... vital... and so connected to her, because she felt free enough to submit to the same primal force which I was driven by... Is it sentimental to say that it made me feel one with her and with Nature?

– That's it. Maybe all this does not make sense to anybody except me. I am aware that I might – like others here who dared to speak against the officially-approved way of thinking – get the advice to get myself some help. I'll just risk that.

Anyway, thanks for holding out to the end, it got much longer than I intended. (I hope I could express myself sufficiently; as you may have noticed, English is not my first language.)

GOI

PS: I would be interested in asking the woman who wrote Rape, Rape Fantasies, Scenes, being Taken (2004 Apr 24 - 22:17) some questions. You aren't still out there, are you?

5{ record: The incidents I am describing in my contribution "To Women - and Men" really happened in my life. They happened within "fully consenting" (as you call it), stable long-term relationships that lasted for several years each; they occured certainly not at the beginning, and not at the end of any of these relationships either.

Thanks for the response anyway.

GOI

Well, if you really want a man who's going to 'demand' that you bear his children then I hope you find one. I must admit that, until very recently, I had no idea that there were any men at all who went around 'demanding' that women bear their children, still less that there were women who actually found this an agreeable prospect. I've certainly learnt a lot from this site.

Personally, if any man 'demanded' of me that I bear his children (though he'd have left it a little late anyway), he'd find that it was he who the dragon was chasing.

Well, I don't crave rape in any shape or form, fantasy or otherwise. I find the idea of forced sex totally unappealing. But then I'm not most women.

I don't know about you guys but I have had one hell of a twisted life, with a very commanding, strict and unyielding father and an abusive brother who used to beat me all the time. I fantasize about rough sex and being spanked by a man who would pull my hair and even bang my head with the wall. I feel ashamed even to think about it.

I know that is serious. This goes beyond fantasy: it's called deep emotional scars that I live with. Some women here are lucky for whom these are only fantasies, while for someone like me, these are serious issues I have to deal with in the long run and find solutions to it. If I don't I will struggle with them for a long time to come. At times I dont understand why I have such violent fantasies -- I am a very gentle girl in real life and wouldn't even want to hurt a fly. I don't want such fantasies; that is why i can understand why some readers are offended but they are entitled to their opinions like all of us. I guess that explains why I am still a virgin at the age of 21. Although I have been intimate with many men but never enough to have sex.

Please note that not all men are like that.

I simply loved your post and my wife says to tell you that she agrees with you all. She has the same desires and I, as her husband, fulfil them as I should.

I fantasize about being raped. I am aroused by rape scenes in movies and yes, bodice-ripper romance novels. The difference is that I don't want to really be raped by some guy with a knife in the parking garage but I would like the man whom I trust to dominate me sexually at times in a rather rape-like manner. So if that makes me sick, oh well, I've been called worse things.

Sharon

I fully agree with and support your statement that the word "rape" should not have been used in such article.
Yes, very very unwise. Rape refers to physical/emotional pain, hurt, helplessness and the resulting feelings of self-destruction. Is that what a 'to-be-taken woman' desires?

I ask the author of the original article not to create havoc using such strong words not knowing their true meaning next time. Also, there are plenty of definitions in many dictionaries, so it is always advisable to use those if one is not completely sure when playing around with words.

Thank you.

'a woman gives to everyone around her, she organises, plans , coordinates, controls, schedules'.

Now I understand why this whole 'rape' thing has no appeal for me. Because I am not one of these giving women who spend all their time organising, planning, controling,etc, I have no control to give up, so maybe that's why the idea of being forcibly taken has no appeal for me at all. I never plan, schedule or coordinate anything. My husband does all that.

I hope this doesn't mean that he has secret dreams of being overpowered and ravished, because I don't think I'd be up to it.

i am happy to see another woman who thinks like me and is willing to say something thank you

i congratulate you on your brave honesty. There are women, and girls, who need raping intensely.

here in the Uk it used to be the case that a husband could not rape his wife as the law deemed that marriage was consent. It is a shame that this has changed. I am glad that my wife agrees that she is required to "consent" to sex whenever I require it. I would not use force but she knows that an attempt to resist would be the end of our relationship.

the boss,
I really identified with the idea you presented in your post. It really is fulfilling to have a partner who is willing to fulfill your sexual fantasies. Congrats :)

However, I do think that, when we post publicly about the things we do, we have to be extra cautious. You did put quite a lot of caveats and such at the beginning of your post, which says that you understand the concept of being careful for the sake of the truly abused.

But using the word "rape" in this way serves to desensitize people to what rape actually is. I know you know the difference between rape fantasy and real rape, but in the spirit of looking out for women who have or will be raped for real, it's probably best not to use that word in reference to fantasy. At least not when publishing something for public consumption.

This article has drawn a lot of attention, and I'm sure you're nearly drowning in comments, but I hope you'll consider not using that word when you refer to this type of activity in the future.

Quote
Hold her. Stroke her hair. Kiss her softly. You have taken her. She is yours.
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This white bread fantasy of rape is so sugar coated it could give a reader diabetes. To say you want to be raped yet somehow not feel the coexisting feelings of violation, anger and the myriad of consequences is naive and suggests you need to get a life. This also sounds more like an incest fantasty to me, which suggest another whole can of worms.
Red Baron

I'm sorry, "a shocked visitor," but you totally don't get it. Try reading the website a bit more and getting a feel for what some of us are looking for before making such sweeping judgments.

Sharon