Greetings Blush,

While your words are nicely said, I must respectfully disagree, both with your premise and your conclusion.

To begin, I feel that, long before love enters into a relationship, there should be lust. Giant tsunamis of hot desire that carry on far beyond the first couple of encounters. While love between friends is all well and good, it is difficult to be married to one person (in particular if they intend to be monogamous) if the relationship lacks in its ability to generate and sustain significant quantities of lust.

Love takes time to build. It requires trust, respect, affection, etc. These qualities do not spring from the ground fully formed. Rather, they represent an ongoing process of development and discovery on the part of each person.

Lust on the other hand is instantaneous, chemical, and impulsive. You get that feeling right away, or you don't.

Is lust a good indicator of dominance? Well, I would certainly suggest that the way a man has sex with a woman should be some indicator of his degree of domination. If he can't exert his control in bed, how will he do in more domestic situations? Besides, long before a couple enters into domestic relations (i.e. marriage) they will be involved in the hot sexuality of a newly discovered partner.

So yes, I think there are some very good indicators of a man's dominance, even before you might be married.

As to your conclusion, that given enough love things can work out, I also disagree. A person can not change their nature. It would be like finding out your husband is gay, and saying that if he really loved you he would go straight. It just doesn't work that way.

Now it is possible that he has been holding himself back, not controlling the situation for fear of crossing into the dangerous realm of political incorrectness. In that case, I believe a discussion on the topic would do wonders.

But thinking that "love can conquer all" is perhaps a bit naive in this situation. I love my wife fully, she is in every way my soul mate. Our commitment to each other is to face all adversity together. But having said that, I can not change her basic character.

For example, a number of years ago, at the age of 42, sandra (my wife) developed cancer and had to undergo chemotherapy. As you know, one of the side affects of this form of treatment is to put a woman into menopause. Her hormones went through a dramatic re-balancing, and the end result was her testosterone levels were considerably reduced from what they had been before hand. And so was her sex drive.

Did I leave her because she no longer wanted sex three times a day like before? Of course not. But neither could I sit down and tell her I wanted more sex with her. That wasn't going to happen. I had to adapt to the way she had changed. Just because she loved me, did not mean she could change the results of what her treatments had ravaged upon her.

Which is my point, Blush. Hoping, that because your husband loves you, he will take you in hand, is imo, a false hope.

Be seeing you,

Mackenzie [Road Warrior]/Taken In Hand

www.mackenziecross.ca

Well, I had a number of comments in mind, but Mackenzie mostly beat me to them, with his very observant post. Let me say this: Blush, if this "love first" approach works out for you, that's wonderful. Miraculous, even. But I don't think it's going to work out equally well for everyone. I've had plenty of loving relationships that lacked the dominance, conquest and passion that I need; so now I've got to start putting my priorities there.

And I do think that it's possible to tell whether a man has dominant tendencies before getting involved in a committed relationship. Certainly that should show up in bed, as Mackenzie said; but I would hope it would show up well before then, too. (And at this point, I'm just about ready to start raising the issue early on, since I'm tired of wasting my time on men who are not dominant.) There are plenty of ways that a man can test for submissive tendencies in a woman, too; and really, I think the ball should be in his court when it comes to that. I don't know about other sexually submissive women, but I just hate having to try and come up with coy ways of letting a man know that's what I'm like. It would be so much easier for him to pull a few dominant moves and find that out firsthand. But if I did have to broach the subject, I guess I can think of various ways to do it.

One thing I do like is arm-wrestling; I enjoy feeling the man's strength, and if he's got a dominant streak then that should be enjoyable for him, too; so I'd look for that wicked, domly gleam in his eye as he's overpowering me and pinning my arm to the table. But I can think of other ways of tilting the conversation in that direction, too; start talking about politics and feminism, and whether women should serve in the military and the police, etc. It should not take much time at all for him to realize that I have some very definite feelings about masculine versus feminine roles. Then he really needs to take charge at some point, even if it's in a fairly mild way, like pinning my arms behind me when he kisses me or whatnot. He needs to make *some* kind of move, or else I can most reasonably conclude that he's either not dominant enough, or he's too scared to express it. (Which also can be interpreted as not dominant enough.)

Anyway, not that I think jumping in bed is the first order of business; but I'd certainly want to make sure we're sexually compatible before embarking on any sort of committed relationship. And while I might like the man and care about him a lot before that time, I don't think we could truly be said to love one another until we've experienced each other sexually and related on that level. But what I would like to have before that is that we like each other a lot, and that we trust each other, and that we treat each other with respect and consideration. I think those things would ideally come before getting sexually involved. But lust and sexual connection are major facets of romantic love, so I think the love would follow after we become sexually intimate, and not before then.

Anyway, no one should undervalue love, of course; but I've met too many sweet, kind, loving men who were not in the least bit dominant; and that is just not enough for me. Not any longer, and not by a long shot.

Hi DeeMarie, I can see that now there are many people who seem to feel relationships are like shopping for apples.

Chose the style, color and texture of the fruit, and it appeals to you, take a bite.

And if that works for you, or even if that works for the majority, then I suppose there must be something in that. Like you, I dated many lovely men, whom I broke up with as the dynamics were just wrong for me. Did I sleep quickly with these men as well? No, I took my time as I always had and chose men whom I found I could care for, perhaps love before I was willing to dedicate my body and mind to.

It took me time to find out that the sizzle was not the steak with these men. And I was glad I had not just tasted their brand of sexuality before I got to know them. Even if they did have a dominant gene in them, I don't know if I could have cared or loved them enough to marry them. But I took the time to find out.

Because I met Gary when I was a bit older (late 30's) I felt I had nothing but time. We spent so much time learning of each other, finding out what made us tick respectively, and flirting with what our ideals were.

I don't care if he were the most masculine man on the earth, if he couldn't hold some kind of key to my mind, I would not offer my body. And while we discovered our love early, yes it has blossomed to more today. Of course things nurtured often do.

But if we had started with testing our sexuality, he would have lost me day one. I can undress, offer my body and at the same time, I will close down my mind and throw away the key. He never would have found out who I was, where my feelings lay, and in my case, exploring my submission. I was not as clearly conscious of my tendencies then. And I was not a teenager.

So, if the system of look, test, taste, and then learn if it's compatible works for you, then enjoy and hopefully you'll find true love....Blush

Sorry to write twice on this DeeMarie, but I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything when I read and reread your comments the first time.

And here is something that I've often thought, and you seem to be saying it as well.

Perhaps there is as place for commitment without love. I don't think it's miraculous at all. I think you have to be open for it, ready or not. But love is no miracle. However saying that, whether it's you, or the other gentlemandom, but there must be a place for subs and doms to committ without love. And I'm sure there is a great many marriages based on that as well.

What is the shame in that, is that you really can't get to that 'higher place' that love and devotion take you. Your needs may get met, and maybe being dominant is the first thing you can look for in a man before seeing if has any other qualities that make up what is most important to you. But you have to wonder just how far that takes you in the journey of discovery when one does not love you, nor you him in just that way.

But my thoughts, sure, it can happen and probably does all the time. Not something I'd like to see happen to my daughter though....Blush

I have often questioned if love would be enough to hold us together. I know it was the initial connection. It was the first realization that I wanted, needed to continue to go forward and for the first time, to look really deeply into who I was, who I am.

Gary probed and discovered my needs. And refined them until I could no longer deny them, my submissiveness. His dominance. And he took his time to cement these roles, these natural roles we each had and complimented the other with. Now, saying that, we do have bumps. But never once have I questioned my love of him. In this big world, the one fact I know I can rely on bar none, is that Gary loves me. He will care for, attend and nurture me with all the gentleness and love one man could possibly have.

There was a time when I didn't now if I even wanted spanking any more. I seemed to have lost my 'need' for it. I didn't like that change. But never did I consider myself to stop submitting to Gary. I don't know what would happen if he stopped leading our relationship. If he were to be ill, I would always love that man. But if the conditions are right, I never want him to stop guiding me, us. But to tell you the truth. With the seed of love firmly planted, all the changes, good and not as good, we'd continue and we'd be strong.

Without that thread of mutual love, what happens when the bumps hit? That is a scary thought. Which is why I have always suggested to look for love first. You don't have to marry someone who is not compatible. But if you are, then love can get you through the duration...