Are you the Conan the Barbarian type?

M. wrote:

Any man who stumbles too deep into a Conan the Barbarian fantasy of taking his woman in hand based on ‘implicit consent’ runs a distinct risk of going to jail.

Yes, that's true; but for those of us who are looking for a Conan to love, it's also very sad. (And sad for the Conans of the world, of course.) There's no denying that we're currently in a culture that's at war with the very idea of male domination of women, and that makes things more difficult for dominant men and the women who love them. But even though the current climate of feminist political correctness tends to rob us of some romance, there's no reason it should be allowed to make romance utterly impossible.

A man should not engage in behavior that's likely to put him in jail, because putting himself in such a vulnerable and disempowered position is the very opposite of dominance. But for many of us, the requirement for explicit verbal consent is like a wet sponge that ruins the whole experience of being dominated; it makes it feel less serious and less real, makes it seem like something we could put a stop to any time we wanted. And for many women, what they want is precisely to feel that they have no control over it, that the man is in complete control at all times.

So, even despite the consent requirement, there needs to be creative ways for the man to take charge of the process, right from the beginning, without waiting for any signals from the woman. But that should be done nonverbally; a bit of dominant behavior conveys a dominant attitude better than any words can. (And her conscious mind might be inclined to disagree with a verbal explanation of dominance; but a bit of dominant behavior can bypass all the intellectualization and summon up her physical and emotional submissive tendencies. For many or most women, it's much easer and more pleasant to submit to a man's dominant behavior than it is to discuss the issue; the latter can be embarrassing and lead to resistance.)

He can probe the woman's submissive tendencies with harmless dominance moves that put him in control, but which could not reasonably be interpreted as any sort of assault. He can hold her tight and pin her arms behind her back, while he whispers teasingly, “I just might not let you go, what do you think about that...?” Or if there's some minor dispute to settle (like, what movie to see), he can playfully tell her that they'll arm wrestle, and whoever wins gets to make the decisions. Or he could even deliver a light, playful whack (one only) on her rump, while she's standing up fully clothed. (Especially if it's in response to some teasing on her part, and he can tell her she was ‘naughty.’) When they're walking together, he can take her firmly by the wrist and lead her. Even slow dancing can be a way to emphasize that he's the one who leads, and she's the one who follows. I once had a boyfriend who would get up close to me, look down at me with a very piercing look in his eyes – but also loving and a bit playful – and just let out a low growl. It was a little warning to me that there was a wild beast in him; and I thought it was one of the sexiest things.

But not all women (even not all submissive women) will respond positively to the same dominance tactics, so it's important to be persistent by trying different things. Especially because some women who have extreme submissive tendencies exhibit that through resistance and denial. (Perverse, I know; but she wants to know that he's strong enough and dominant enough to push through her resistance and overwhelm her.) But if she doesn't seem to respond positively to any of it, or if she complains (in a non-teasing manner) that he's “too bossy,” then she's probably not the right woman.

If she does seem like she enjoys being dominated, then that can eventually be discussed explicitly. But here again, I think it's much better if the man takes the initiative. Don't spring it too quickly; let her experience his dominant behavior first. But if she does start to make teasing remarks like “yes, master” or joke about how bossy he is sometimes, then it's probably a good time to talk about it. But I think there are two very bad ways a man could choose to talk about it. One is to be very clinical and explicit, and the other is to seem too needy.

The former mistake would be something like, “You may not be aware of it, but some men, such as myself, prefer to be the dominant partner in a marriage or romantic relationship, and some women prefer...blah, blah, yada, yada.” Please. Don't put the poor woman to sleep with your detailed oration. The second error would be something like: “Gosh, I really like you a lot and would like our relationship to grow more intimate; but as it happens I sometimes enjoy being dominant, and I was hoping maybe that you might enjoy being submissive, at least sometimes, or perhaps at least you might be willing to consider trying it out...?” Sorry, but that's not dominance, that's whimpering and groveling.

Much better to first establish that she reacts positively to his dominance; even if that first requires overcoming some resistance on her part. (No, I don't mean forcing a spanking on her when she's yelling at him to stop. Nor do I mean being bossy all the time. I mean trying out a variety of dominant romantic behaviors and seeing what elicits a receptive response.) Then when her submissive inclinations have been established (or even if it's not, but he still thinks she might have potential), it's time to put that into words. Preferably this should be done in privacy, and at a physically intimate moment. But it's better not to phrase it as a question (which can seem kind of wimpy). Instead, he can state it as a fact that he has observed about her, or an inclination that he has somehow guessed she has. Such as, “You know, I do get bossy and pushy with you sometimes. But I also know that some women really like having a man in charge, and I'm guessing that you're one of those women.” Or, “Yeah, I guess I just have this macho ‘alpha male’ streak in me. But it seems to me like you're the kind of woman who can appreciate a man who knows how to take charge.” Maybe even add: “I find it very feminine the way you respond to me; and a woman who is truly feminine is fascinating to me.”

It's best for him to look her straight in the eyes when he delivers this sort of pronouncement on her submissive tendencies; preferably with a penetrating gaze of adoration. (But I would avoid using the word “submissive” because it's just too loaded with diverse connotations and excess baggage, and she might not want to see herself that way.) If she just blushes or gets coy and doesn't want to talk about it, then just leave it for the time being; and maybe raise it again later. But that kind of behavior would seem to indicate compatibility with a dominant man. If she argues with you about it, or outright denies it, or wants to go into lengthy debate about exactly what you mean, then that's not as promising. (But, again, sometimes very submissive women will put up precisely that sort of resistance at first.)

Or maybe she'll want to talk about it right then and there, so he should be prepared for that, too. Another approach would be for him to tell her that he's interested in what sort of romances she finds exciting; or even encourage her to read him some of her favorite erotic passages from romance novels. (If she reads them.) Or he could encourage her to express her romantic fantasies through poetry or writing short descriptions of imaginary encounters that she (or ‘some women’) might enjoy. It can be easier for a woman to express her interests indirectly that way, than by sitting down and saying “here is what really turns me on...”

But I would advise against the man laying all his cards out on the table right away; nor should he demand that she do that; and certainly don't pull out one of those silly bdsm “checklists” and/or make her list all the things she would enjoy and all the things she would object to. Some ‘dominant’ men seem to underestimate the feminine tendency towards modesty, perhaps because they don't really grasp how fragile and vulnerable a woman can feel with regard to the whole dominance/submission theme. (Which is one reason the whole “explicit verbal consent” thing is just a pain and bother.) Women enjoy having some mystery and secrecy to romance, they enjoy having things understood but not named aloud. I also think most women like the feeling that they're not completely exposed, but rather hidden behind a veil of sorts – even if they're stark naked. The mistake that men seem to make is in wanting to just pull the veil off right away; they don't seem to realize that will diminish the erotic aspect for both of them.

It's still the man's job to continue exploring the unknown terrain of her emotional responses, by seeing how she responds to his dominant moves. If he tries to shortcut that by demanding that she describe her submissive tendencies fully, or hand him a detailed report of her “kinks” and inclinations, then that can seem very cold and even insulting. It indicates he's either too lazy to do the work, or not interested enough in her to think that she's worth the effort. (And a woman will not want to give herself to a man who does not seem to adore her and value her sufficiently.) Instead, it should be a journey of discovery for both of them, but one in which he is clearly the captain. And when, at some point, that journey is accompanied by explicit verbal discussions of consent, it will hopefully not detract too much from the thrill of the voyage which was already underway.

So – yes, I do want a Conan. But I want a Conan with heart and brains – a strong man who has a deep emotional capacity, as well as the insight and intuitive capacity that it takes to figure out what makes his woman tick. That's what “implicit consent” implies. Because only then will he really be capable of exerting his dominance effectively, leading her and even pushing to new depths of romantic experience. And if he is actually capable of doing that, then the pesky need for explicit verbal consent becomes less a weighty issue of central concern, and more like a small, decorative footnote.

DeeMarie

Taken In Hand Tour start | next


Have you seen the following articles?
Help! The one I love nowadays rarely wants sex!
Making it explicit versus keeping it implicit
From vague awareness to a beautiful relationship
On being a man
In defence of books like Fascinating Womanhood
Shall we dance?
A sword-wielding female warrior taken in hand!
Is the man's authority real if consent can be revoked?
Who needs forbidden fruit when you have this?!
What do you mean, you want to be taken in hand?!

Establishing a positive response

The second error would be something like: “Gosh, I really like you a lot and would like our relationship to grow more intimate; but as it happens I sometimes enjoy being dominant, and I was hoping maybe that you might enjoy being submissive, at least sometimes, or perhaps at least you might be willing to consider trying it out...?” Sorry, but that's not dominance, that's whimpering and groveling.

During a conversation early in our relationship, I said something along the lines of how a man should not bother asking a woman if he can kiss her, because if he has to ask, the answer is going to be no. My man responded with, "Hell if I wanted to kiss you, I'd just grab you and kiss you."

Requesting a kiss

Yes, I can relate to that. On my first 'date' with one of my boyfriends (a total hunk - handsome, twice my size and solid muscle), we were at a local park at night, under the stars with a small bonfire lit, very romantic. He was sitting very close to me for the longest time, and I kept waiting for him to make a move -- any move, but preferably a wild and passionate one -- throw me down, jump my bones, etc. But he was being very shy and hesitant. Finally, he looked in my eyes and asked me very sincerely, "Would it be ok if I kissed you?" Ugh! It very nearly ruined the whole thing.

Trying to give him a much-needed clue-by-four, I replied that he did not need to ask, he only needed to do it. Whereupon he began to apologize and clarify and explain why he thought it would be better to ask me, etc, etc. Maybe I should have known right then that it was doomed, but he was so big and gorgeous that I just shut my eyes to the obvious mismatch, and to his unfortunate lack of confidence. (Actually, I think he did have a real dominant streak, but he was such an insecure person in so many ways that that side of him never really had a chance to be expressed fully and clearly.)

With my very first boyfriend, I tried another sort of clue. He started hinting around at having sex (I was still a virgin then), and I told him to look at page so-and-so of a certain book. It was one of Ayn Rand's novels (which we both loved), and one of her famous ravishment scenes, where the hero was making moves on the heroine, and she was thinking something like, "Oh, please, don't ask me, just take me!" That hint landed right on target.

But in general, my experience has been that most guys are much too timid. Even when it's clear they're interested in getting physical, they still hold back waiting for signed certificates of permission and approval, in triplicate. A guy who is so afraid to risk a woman's disapproval is not really someone that I can respect as a man. Perhaps it would strike them as perverse, but if he really needs my approval, then it's unlikely he'll ever get it.

Waiting for signals

I can't say I ever had any problem with this myself, none of the men I ever went out with ever asked permission to kiss me, most were trying to get my knickers off within hours (sometimes minutes) of meeting me. Myabe it's an American thing? Do American women frighten men for some reason?

Litigation

It´s the american laws that frighten american men. Any woman can press charges against a man for sexual abuse after he kissed her or touched her in the US, even if she really wanted it at the time but somehow changed her mind about it later.

Shy hesitant men

It might be partly the American legal / political correctness climate; one does hear some crazy stories about that. But it's probably at least partly my personality, which has been described to me more than once as "intimidating." Actually, I don't think I'm intimidating at all, and I regularly get called "sweetie" by men and women of various ages. (Not that I particularly like that; but it's some sort of evidence that I'm not all that intimidating.)

I'd guess what many men find "intimidating" is just a woman who's smart, confident, assertive, opinionated, emotionally intense, and rather idiosyncratic. Men tend to react to me as if I'm some sort of fascinating, exotic creature from a far-off land that they've never encountered before, not even in travel brochures -- and they're not quite certain that it's not going to devour them for lunch. So they often tend to back off after having expressed an initial interest -- especially the masculine men that I'm most attracted to. They seem to get some kind of "too much to handle" vibe from me. On the other hand, I've often managed to attract just the wrong sorts of guys -- submissive men who want a commanding "goddess" whom they can put up on a pedestal to worship and adore. Ugh. What I'm looking for is a dominant man who's a lot stronger than I am, so that he doesn't think I'm too much to handle and then wimp out on me.

I suppose one might say that the problem is that I "hide" my feminine submissive nature rather thoroughly from casual observers; but I don't think that's the case, either. I'm not really hiding anything, I'm just being the me that I am when I'm not relating to a dominant man in an intimate way. Just because I'm a sexually submissive woman, that doesn't mean that's all that I am, or that I'm that way all the time. Unless I'm in an intimate romantic encounter, my sexually submissive side doesn't really arise at all. So from my perspective the problem is that more dominant men need to consider the possibility that a woman may be very sexually submissive, even if that's not obvious at all from a casual platonic encounter.

Sub-liminal Signals

Dee Marie, if you'll excuse the pun, I think the signals you are giving off are simply not submissive ones. You seem very much like a more dominant type and you are attracting submissive men.

You're saying the men need to change and consider the possibility that some women might appear dominant and yet be very submissive in a romantic setting.

I would suggest that, as any therapist or life coach would tell you, it's never possible to change the other person but you can change yourself. Something about you is telling the more dominant men that you are perhaps too high maintenance and not worth their effort.

In a sense you are looking for a Superman who will see your nature as a worthy challenge. Well, if such men existed, they were always the needle in the haystack and not just because of the political climate today. Men, like women, like a comfortable relationship without a lot of strife, and your nature may suggest to a man that he is going to have to go through a lot of strife to tame you.

"Pat"

You can't have it both ways, Pat!

Pat, on the one hand, you accuse a Taken In Hand women who identifies as a submissive woman (i.e., DeeMarie) of not really being submissive:

I think the signals you are giving off are simply not submissive ones. You seem very much like a more dominant type and you are attracting submissive men.

On the other hand, when another Taken In Hand woman takes note of such accusations and elects not to claim to be submissive, you accuse her of being in denial. You have made this accusation many times on this site. On one occasion you wrote:

I once heard an experienced Dom say that you are what arouses you. Across the board I am seeing from Taken in Hand women that they are aroused by evidence of their man's dominance over them, whether it's a tone of voice, a spanking or simply a raised eyebrow. If that is what makes your heart go pit a pat and other organs ready themselves for action, then you are submissive: it doesn't matter how many high powered deals you pull off at work.

You can't have it both ways! Which is it?

There Is No Contradiction

the boss, if you look carefully I am not saying Dee Marie is not submissive. I said she is giving off subliminal signals, however, that are making men respond to her as if she were a dominant. Therefore something in her behavior is scaring the dominant men away and appealing to the submissive men, who unfortunately are repellent to her.

It's possible that just like some submissives who are in denial about being submissive, Dee Marie might be more dominant than she thinks, but I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt here.

The problem is that a dominant man looking for a submissive woman is probably not going to recognize one in her. Something in her behavior needs to be modified so that she can attract the man of her submissive dreams.

"Pat"

I am strong, successful, conf

I am strong, successful, confident and live in Texas. It has been my experience (i'm 40) that Texas men go for it. I thought it odd that Dee Marie's experience has been that most guys are timid to make the move or moves as the case may be. I think in my entire life only one guy asked to kiss me first, timidity in Texas men has not been my experience or most of my friends experience. And I am not even talking about cowboys!

So maybe the problem is regional or the vibes Dee Marie is putting out? Tatiana

Re: I`m strong....

Since these answers came frome middle aged women and I assume that ya`ll ain`t dating men in their 20s or early 30s, the laws have changed from 20 years ago and so have the men.

Superman

"Pat" wrote:

In a sense you [DeeMarie] are looking for a Superman who will see your nature as a worthy challenge. Well, if such men existed, they were always the needle in the haystack and not just because of the political climate today. Men, like women, like a comfortable relationship without a lot of strife, and your nature may suggest to a man that he is going to have to go through a lot of strife to tame you.

So true, as my friend Pat has so well stated the case - but the strife is well worth the having of a fabulous woman such as DeeMarie or Mike's Girl.

MIKE

I believe Dee Marie is also

I believe Dee Marie is also middle aged (excuse me if I am mistaken). I still disagree that guys of any age are mostly timid to make a move, it's not like I don't know guys in their 20's and 30's. Guys are guys, maybe they aren't groping at the office anymore (which is a good thing) and I am sure some are timid but just try to stop a guy from going after a woman he is interested in. If you think a guy is interested and he is not making a move then maybe he is just not that into you and you have misread the signs. Tatiana

Making the Moves

Of course I have been out of the dating market for over 18 years since my husband and I started dating exclusively, moved in together and got married. The world of dating and the way men approach a woman may have vastly changed since then but I doubt it.

There were only a few instances in my life when a man was so hesitant as to ask if he could kiss me. Most didn't and most tried to take it to the next step if they could (without, however, Dee Marie's thrilling violence). Oh yes, one or two tried that smash her up against the wall and restrain her thing...now what were their phone numbers again? I'll gladly pass them along. I thought they were boorish and insensitive jerks who just wanted what they wanted and to hell with my feelings.

But if that rings your chimes, Dee Marie, I hope they are unmarried and available..somewhere out there waiting for you.

I get no impression that men are afraid of women and afraid to make a seductive approach once there is a relationship established and it is a good bet they will be accepted. Plenty of men do not like rejection and are nervous about making the first move but so far as I remember it was always that way, even into the antiquities of the late 1960's and the sexual revolution.

"Pat"

I think having a man ask if h

I think having a man ask if he could kiss me would be sweet. I really don't think it indicates he's a wimp, it indicates that he cares about how I feel about what's happening to me. If he continued to ask permission everytime throughout the relationship I might find that a little odd. I like a man who's not afraid to take charge of the relationship, but I don't think that taking a woman's feelings into account makes you unable to do that.

Doesn't Make Him a Wimp

But if he asked me and I thought it over, many times my answer would be no. If he went ahead and kissed me (without being forceful and jamming my incisors down my throat) I enjoyed that better.

I'm in favor of a man making his moves with confidence and without having to ask permission..when we are talking about a goodnight kiss. I'm not in favor of him having sex with me without checking my responses, verbal or otherwise, to see if that is okay.

"Pat"

Asking to kiss?

I have never been asked by a male for a kiss nor been forced to do so. Getting gradually close to a male to the point when he is comfortable to gently but spontaneously plant one is the best course of action in my opinion.

Why I love my husband

Well, this whole subject is just bringing back memories for me. I think I love my husband precisely because he kissed me without asking permission, or even saying hello, for that matter.

We met in a college class and then I dropped out of school (temporarily) and was getting ready to leave town. I wanted to have one more fling before I left and I couldn't find anyone to oblige me. So my friend (who was also a friend of his) suggested my now-husband. Long story short, I called him and I got my one night stand. I guess he took my "come over here and I'll have sex with you" as consent to kissing or anything else.

The next day we left, but our car broke down so I find myself back in town at a friend's house. My husband-to-be calls a couple days later to see if that friend knows how I am doing. The friend does and tells him that I am here. Without even talking to me he drives over.

When he gets there, our mutual friend lets him in. He walks over to me and wraps his hands around my face and plants a 60 second kiss on me. No hello, no by your leave, nothing. This is a man that I have spoken to three times in my entire life. Then he looks me in the eye and says, "...but we'll talk about *that* later." From that moment, I belonged to him and I never looked back.

It amazes me that it took us over ten years to begin having a Taken In Hand relationship.

It's been over 11 years and I can still remember that kiss like it was this afternoon. Thanks for reminding me of a wonderful memory.

Otter*

PS By the way, I am by no means suggesting that anyone expect a one night stand to last 11+ years or that this is a good way to go about looking for a life partner, LOL. I just got lucky...

Expectations

It was so difficult, until I found my "Conan", to get the reaction I needed from a man. I'm a tall and quite large framed woman. I tower over my female friends and colleagues and quite a few males too. I love romance, being swept off my feet and being put in my place, especially if I'm playfully bratty!

And YES! When you have to ask for it (e.g. I'd like you to spank me, please) it's such a turn off. But in this politically correct and dangerous climate of having to be careful, it was a tremendous relief when I found a man whom I trusted implicitly, who knew my fondness for being taken, so that I could do away with subtle hints, safewords and the like.

Previous relationships found my presence and desires quite a confusing paradox. How can I take this big bird in hand? Fancy her being submissive? This is scary? I cannot find the words to explain how god damn frustrating this was.

Now it's simple. I get a smack on the rump frequently (sometimes playful, others not). I get told him his "bought and paid for" (yummy!). Equally, I know he'd be the knight in armour whenever it was required and this is gorgeous too, because the love and care, alongside respect, is there.

So long live the Conans of this world. Get out your wants and desires from the outset and enjoy!!!

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